Lansing Board of Water and Light - DMR motoTRBO

[mmilbourne]

Hello All,

I am attempting to gather data about the Lansing BWL DMR system! I have started to add to the database what I have discovered.

I am new to DMR and not sure if it is me or something is missing from the database, but I seem to be getting half conversations a good 50% of the time. is there anyone else monitoring this system (or other DMR systems) that can enlighten me in what I may be doing incorrectly?

I have attached a photo of my BCD536HP on the system status screen, If someone could let me know what I am looking at here it would be great too!

Thanks
Matt M.

 

[RayAir]

Hello All,

I am attempting to gather data about the Lansing BWL DMR system! I have started to add to the database what I have discovered.

I am new to DMR and not sure if it is me or something is missing from the database, but I seem to be getting half conversations a good 50% of the time. is there anyone else monitoring this system (or other DMR systems) that can enlighten me in what I may be doing incorrectly?

I have attached a photo of my BCD536HP on the system status screen, If someone could let me know what I am looking at here it would be great too!

Thanks
Matt M.

Looking at the database it looks like the licensed frequencies were part of an old analog type 2 TRS which has been converted to Mototrbo Cap+. That said many of the frequencies in the db likely aren't part of the Cap+ system.

Unfortunately, I do not own a dmr scanner. I use dsd+ which is a great tool for mapping out DMR systems.
If you can use dsd+ I'd recommend doing so. You can monitor those frequencies and determine the order of the repeaters in the system. Not sure if your scanner has an LCN finder function?

You could also test other possible missing frequencies by inputting them as analog and listening for the mototrbo rest channel data noise.

The way capacity plus works is the active repeater will send intermittent data bursts letting radios on the system know this is the current repeater in use.
Ex)
Repeater 1 (LCN 1/2)
Repeater 2 (LCN 3/4)
Repeater 3 (LCN 5/6)
Repeater 4 (LCN 7/8)

Let's say repeater 1 is active (rest ch data bursts)
A call on the system will be handled by this repeater. Once two simultaneous calls occur on the repeater, the rest channel will move to the next repeater in LCN order, which would be repeater 2 (LCN 3/4). This process repeats itself as calls are handled. So if you're missing a repeater that could explain why you're missing traffic.

 

[mmilbourne]

Thanks for that information, I am using the LCN finder on my BCD536HP to attempt to locate the order the LCN's are in. I attempted to run it on all 8 frequencies with the result that it only located 4 and would not let me see which ones they are.

I am trying to remove some of the frequencies that do not have the data bursts on them and see where that gets me.

I will submit more information to the database when I track down the LCN's order.

 

[mtindor]

If you are truly monitoring that 800 mhz site, that's a Connect Plus system according to the control channel. Notice it broadacasts a system ID.

001ABh(exidecimal) = that should convert to System ID 427 in decimal, which is what the database wants . So the first step is to submit something to the database indicating that it's Con+ instead of Cap+.

Mike

 

[mmilbourne]

is there a difference in tracking down the LCN's? with the CON+ system?

 

[mtindor]

Thanks for that information, I am using the LCN finder on my BCD536HP to attempt to locate the order the LCN's are in. I attempted to run it on all 8 frequencies with the result that it only located 4 and would not let me see which ones they are.

I am trying to remove some of the frequencies that do not have the data bursts on them and see where that gets me.

I will submit more information to the database when I track down the LCN's order.

If you program all of those frequencies off of both of those licenses (assuming you are confident that both of those licenses are part of the trunked site), you can run the LCN FInder on the BCD536HP to attempt to determine LCN order.

You'll want to monitor it at a time of day/week when it is the busiest. And with all of those frequencies (off of two licenses), I'd be willing to bet an SDS100 that not every frequency is actively used on that site. And that means the LCN Finder would never actually "complete" but would give up after finding X out of Y LCNs. But then at that point it gives you a chance to save that information. then you can go back into that system, delve into the site details, look at each frequency and see what the color codes and LCNs are.

You will need to know (a) all active frequencies as well as (b) the color code associated with each active freq and (c) the LCN associated with each active freq in order to properly/adequately trunk it with your Uniden.

So LCN Finder is a good start at attempting to determine what frequencies are active.

Mike

 

[mtindor]

is there a difference in tracking down the LCN's? with the CON+ system?

A Con+ will typically (but not always) rotate across all of the frequencies over the course of a bunch of conversations, whereas a Cap+ system may never leave LCN 1 if it isn't that busy. So, with it being Con+ that may actually help you out.

As far as programming your scanner, there is no difference in the way you would program it.

Just know that you will need to identify both LCNs and color codes. Lots of systems use the same color code for all frequencies that are part of a site. But, that isn't mandatory and sometimes you'll find that the color code is different for different frequencies on the same site.

Learning how to use the LCN Finder will help you not only with DMR systems but also NXDN systems (if you have that upgrade as well).

Mike

 

[mmilbourne]

Thank for all that information, you referenced 2 licenses? I am only seeing one, it is for the old type 2 system, am I missing one?

and

my scanner never gave me the option to save my LCNS and that was after running all night, am I missing something?

 

[mtindor]

I would also advise / suggest that you use your BCD536HP to tune to each of those 11 frequencies and then see if any of them come up as a Motorola Type II channel advertising system ID of 192A. If NONE of those frequencies are active as a Motorola Type II system any longer ( entry in the DB: https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=2464 ), then submit a request to the Type II system asking that it be "deprecated" because it is no longer in use and ask an admin to copy the talkgroup information to the wiki so that the old talkgroup info may help you in identifying talkgroups on the new system).

BUT, perhaps the old Type II system AND a DMR Con+ system are active (with one system using some freqs and one system using the remaining freqs) while they take their time moving off of the Type II.

You definitely want to rule out whether or not the old Motorola Type II system is still active -- otherwise you'll be adding frequencies to the DMR system that may be long to the Type II system. Plus, if the Type II system is no longer online, there is no reason for the old Type II system to show in the database and it shoudl then be "deprecated".

mike

 

[mtindor]

Thank for all that information, you referenced 2 licenses? I am only seeing one, it is for the old type 2 system, am I missing one?

Yes, click on "Primary" next to the frequencies in the DB. You'll see two licenses associated with it.

WPEI830
854.4875
855.4875
855.5125
857.1375
857.7625
858.5375

WNWK275
854.3375
855.3375
856.7625
857.5375
858.2875

my scanner never gave me the option to save my LCNS and that was after running all night, am I missing something?

No, you aren't missing anything. If you are in LCN Finder mode and after running LCN Finder ofr a significant amount of time you "back out of it" -- I think by hitting Menu, it should prompt you to save the LCNs. At least that is how it works on the SDS100. Should work similarly on the BCD536HP.

Don't even bother trying to run LCN Finder unless the system is busy though. Otherwise even if all of the frequencies are in use the LCN finder will find very little. The LCN Finder requires system activity on all frequencies (over time) in order to properly determine the LCNs / color codes.

Mike

 

[mtindor]

my scanner never gave me the option to save my LCNS and that was after running all night, am I missing something?

Read this thread: https://forums.radioreference.com/uniden-tech-support/369071-lcn-finder.html

Apparently, if LCN Finder finds ALL frequencies to be active and finds all of the LCNs, it will stop on its own and prompt to save. Otherwise, if the LCN Finder does not find all of the LCNs (because it didn't have time, or because some of the frequencies programmed in aren't active on the system), then the LCN Finder never completes on that own.

And in that case you apparently want to hit FUNC-SYS , whereby it will then prompt you to save.

Mike

 

[mmilbourne]

Unfourtunly, 192A is still active, just programmed it into my scanner and the control is still active. just a random thought, could the second licence (WNWK275) be the DMR system?

 

[mtindor]

Unfourtunly, 192A is still active, just programmed it into my scanner and the control is still active. just a random thought, could the second licence (WNWK275) be the DMR system?

I'm in Ohio and know nothing about it. Yes, it could -- but in the database the old Moto system also lists both licenses and frequencies off of both licenses.

So you now have to determine not only what frequencies are still active on 192A, but also what frequencies are active on the DMR system. At least you'll know that if it's active on 192A, it won't be active on DMR -- and vice versa.

So, if you found the control channel for 192A, you can remove that from the list of frequencies you have programmed into the DMR site.

At this point I would recommend this (meaning this is what I would do if I were in your situation):

1. Program all 11 frequencies into a scanlist as conventional frequencies -- digital modulation

2. Scan that scanlist.

When it stops on a frequency that is DMR, it will list attributes that make it apparent that it is DMR (and thus part of hte DMR system). When it stops on a frequency that is from the Type II system, it will be good old analog voice.

So then, when you find something that is obviously DMR, mark that frequency down as being part of the DMR system, and when you find something that is analog, mark it down as being part of the Moto Type II system.

Assuming you do that all during the weekday sometime, you're going to find some answers pretty quick -- and you'll be able to dwindle down the number of frequencies that you suspect are DMR (and thus won't have to run LCN Finder on so many frequencies and will likely have a better result with LCN Finder).

Mike

 

[mmilbourne]

thank you,
I will do that, and also I think the second license is the DMR system because I was monitoring it earlier and I had traffic on the DMR system on 4 of the frequency on the second licence and none on the first licence.

 

[mtindor]

thank you,
I will do that, and also I think the second license is the DMR system because I was monitoring it earlier and I had traffic on the DMR system on 4 of the frequency on the second licence and none on the first licence.

Well, that could be -- but you don't want to rule out the second license. Glad you found at least four DMR frequencies so far.

Out of 11 total, you so far know that 4 are DMR and one is Moto Type II. That leaves only six to figure out. Once you get close, then whatever you know is DMR (or suspect is DMR) you can enter into your DMR Trunked system and run LCN Finder on it -- and you'll probably have fairly good luck if you do that during a busy time of the weekday.

Good luck! And, please do share your findings here (and eventually in a submission to the database so that others can benefit).

For instance, if ANY of the four frequencies that you say are now DMR are listed on the Motorola Type II system here ( https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=2464 ), please submit an update to the database letting them know that those four frequencies are no longer part of the Type II system and instead are now DMR.

And for any frequencies that you are certain are on the Type II system but are listed in the DMR system in the database, make a submission to the DMR database asking admins to remove the frequencies that you know and have sent to them as analog freqs that are part of the Type II system.

I suspect over time the Type II will be completely decommissioned and the DMR will pick up some of those freqs.

Also, don't forget to submit to the database that it is a Connect Plus DMR site and let them know that the System ID is 427.

Thanks

Mike

 

[mmilbourne]

already made the submission for the system ID and the type change.

also in the upper part of my scanner screen, it says CON when monitoring that system? does that mean CON+ system or something else?

 

[mtindor]

Please also make sure that when you submit the System ID (427) and the note that it is ConnectPlus to the DMR system, also specifically indicate which of the DMR frequencies is the current Con+ control channel so that they can note it in the DB. (control channels may rotate at set intervals, or may pretty much stay the same unless the control channel repeater goes down or the admin of the system switches control channels).

The idea is that you want the active control channel to show up as a 'red' frequency in the DB so that others know that it has been spotted as a control channel.

And if you are in conventional mode and scan any freqs and find them to be DMR, make note of the color code that is listed whilst you are scanning. That will be the same color code that will need to be added to the database for that frequency.

Mike

 

[mtindor]

already made the submission for the system ID and the type change.

also in the upper part of my scanner screen, it says CON when monitoring that system? does that mean CON+ system or something else?

That is exactly what is means -- it is a ConnectPlus system. CON indicates that.

Great job on sleuthing things out thus far. I'm not in MIchigan, but I really thank you for taking the time to figure out some of the things and submit them to the DB for the benefit of others!

IF your scanner does NXDN, NX48 means NEXEDGE48 and NX96 means NEXEDGE96 -- just a note.

Mike

 

[mmilbourne]

The DMR Control Chnl, when tuned in says
colour 1
s1/s2 (flashes between the two)
CON

I am assuming this is the control channel anyway. would that be a good guess?

 

[mmilbourne]

and what LCN will the control chnl be, it never seems to come up in LCN Finder?