XTS 5000 programming for Type II system

[phil2810]

I'm in the US Navy and have a Motorola StartSite 2000 type II trunking system installed onboard my ship. We've been using MTX 838's on it for years, but recently got a bunch of unprogrammed XTS 5000's and I'm having problems getting them to fully access the trunk.

I mapped out all of the channels and talkgroups from an 838 used it as a guide to build a codeplug from scratch for the 5000's and loaded it into one of the radios.... I thought it was good to go, because when I keyed the 838 on the first talkgroup, the 5000 received just fine, then I keyed the 5000 and the 838 received just fine. BUT, if I key the 5000 first, I can't access the trunk at all - I just get the same tone I get from an 838 when I loose power to my trunk rack (I assume there's a proper term for the tone, but I've never studied Motorola lingo).

As long as I access the trunk with the 838 first and key up the 5000 before the channel assignment for the talkgroup is released, everything is fine. I have my system key loaded and all trunking menus are accessible in the CPS (ASTRO 25 Ver 12). All of my conventional point to point and repeater channels are working fine. I did as much of a side by side comparison with the 838 codeplug using 4097V RSS, but that's sort of apples to oranges with a 5000 and the CPS. I did notice that the particular 838 I was viewing at a specific Radio ID and I hadn't changed the from the default of 1 (0001). I tried changing it to FFF0, but that didn't work, so I moved on to other areas because I think it's only for private calls. Maybe I'm wrong ... I haven't tried to access the trunk controller to see if there is an authorized list of ID's somewhere, so I'm considering using one of the 838 ID's in the morning. I attached the codeplugs for both a 5000 and an 838 in the zip files below if anyone wants to look at them and point me in the right direction.

Until a month ago, no one onboard knew anything about they system, and this forum has helped me immensely... I've been fixing military electronics for 18 years (HF, LOS, SATCOM, RADAR, IFF, etc) but I haven't messed around with motorola stuff since crystal swapping on MT500's and using a 286 to program HT600 for conventional repeater ops..... Things have changed

 

[RKG]

What it sounds like is that your system controller is set for "Message Trunking." If you key first with the old radio, it successfully obtains a voice channel grant and, with Message Trunking, that voice channel stays up for a certain amount of time for replies. Your XTS is replying on the voice channel while it is still up, which means that most of what you have there is correct.

However, if you key up with the XTS first, it is apparently not getting a voice channel grant. I would expect the radio to "boop" when you do this (versus the chirp that is the "Talk Permit Tone" when you key up the old radio). This implies a glitch in one of the particular settings for "Trunked System."

Without being there, that's as far as I can go.

 

[monitor142]

A few things to note:

Like RKG mentioned, make sure the trunking type matches the 838 codeplug.

You also need to see if there's a positive subscriber database activated for the trunker. I'm not sure if you use SIMS or another program in the StartSite controller but you need to check the SAC and ensure if it's on that the ID that you give the 5000 is activated. If you have a good ID for the 838, clone it to ensure that it works. Do not however clone radios permanently, give each it's own unique ID.

Make sure that the 5000 is not programmed for SmartZone operation; it sounds like you are a single site on the ship.

Last, make sure you are using the right Connect Tone (a PL in the Motorola trunking world). If you key up on the 838 and are able to jump on with the 5000 before the channel drops, maybe you have the wrong connect tone???

Edit: I just looked at you 5000 codeplug; don't have and RSS for the 838. I noticed in the Trunking Configuration that your ISW Window Adjustment is set at 0091. Factory default which works fine for my system is FFC0. I don't know if that could be an issue but it may affect the ISW info sent to the controller.

Good luck.

M142

 

[Seadoo]

I belive RKG and monitor142 are correct. SOunds to me like you do not have the xts programmed with an activated ID. To check, just read one of the other radios and use its ID on your XTS then check your xts to see if it will key up. If that works, then you will have to add your new id's that you assign to your xts radios to your trunk system activated list of ids.

 

[phil2810]

Thanks everyone

I tried using a known good ID from an 838 this morning and still no joy, so I kept looking. I noticed that on the 838 there was a 12.5KHz channel spacing setting under the F9 "More Options" menu.... I thought this was strange since our repeater channel spacing is 25Khz. Anyway, under the "Trunking System-1" "Advanced" tab, I had 25Khz selected, so I switched it to 12.5Khz and it worked. I'm not sure exactly what that setting is for, but I figured I'd learn AFTER I finished building the rest of the zone/channel assignments, scan lists etc....

Again, Thanks to all who responded.

Phil

 

[motorola_otaku]

Hey, I thought all you Navy guys used EDACS systems on the boats? Radioreference lied to me!!

Anywho, question about the StartSite system: does it actually use Motorola Desktrac repeaters, or MSF5000s? Reason I ask is, the Desktrac repeaters use two Maxtrac mobiles for the transmitter and receiver, and there's been some interest on the Batlabs forum in obtaining either the part numbers and firmware revisions used in the receiver radio or a scan/copy of the 800 MHz Desktrac service manual, since no one's ever seen a Maxtrac that would receive 806-824 MHz.

 

[ecps92]

Actually if you use the TRS Search and just put in USS you will find plenty of US Navy Motorola TRS Systems. [380, 400 and 457 Mhz]
RadioReference.com - Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference Database

Hey, I thought all you Navy guys used EDACS systems on the boats? Radioreference lied to me!!

Anywho, question about the StartSite system: does it actually use Motorola Desktrac repeaters, or MSF5000s? Reason I ask is, the Desktrac repeaters use two Maxtrac mobiles for the transmitter and receiver, and there's been some interest on the Batlabs forum in obtaining either the part numbers and firmware revisions used in the receiver radio or a scan/copy of the 800 MHz Desktrac service manual, since no one's ever seen a Maxtrac that would receive 806-824 MHz.

 

[motorola_otaku]

Hell, I'm way off-base anyway.. I saw "MTX 838", thought he was talking about an old Genesis-series brick which only trunked in 800 and 900 MHz versions, and thought he was working on an 800 MHz system, which made no sense given that every other Navy ship trunk system is/was UHF. Then I remembered that the MTX838 was a Jedi-series radio, and plenty capable of UHF trunking, which makes the whole repeater thing irrelevant. Durrr.. disregard last post.

 

[RKG]

I tried using a known good ID from an 838 this morning and still no joy, so I kept looking. I noticed that on the 838 there was a 12.5KHz channel spacing setting under the F9 "More Options" menu.... I thought this was strange since our repeater channel spacing is 25Khz. Anyway, under the "Trunking System-1" "Advanced" tab, I had 25Khz selected, so I switched it to 12.5Khz and it worked. I'm not sure exactly what that setting is for, but I figured I'd learn AFTER I finished building the rest of the zone/channel assignments, scan lists etc....

Again, Thanks to all who responded.

Phil

OK, what you did was to invoke what is known as the "Splinter Table." This replaces the "normal" table that relates the hex integers that a channel grant OSW sends to the actual frequencies (in MHz) of the assigned voice channel. The key, of course, is that the subscriber radios have to use the same table that is being used by the trunking system controller. Glad it worked out for you.

 

[monitor142]

Very cool Phil! I'm glad you were able to figure it out. RKG was dead on...now your radio knows what frequency to go to now, so to speak : )

Welcome to the group and many thanks for the service to provide to your shipmates and ultimately us.

-M142

 

[WayneH]

OK, what you did was to invoke what is known as the "Splinter Table." This replaces the "normal" table that relates the hex integers that a channel grant OSW sends to the actual frequencies (in MHz) of the assigned voice channel. The key, of course, is that the subscriber radios have to use the same table that is being used by the trunking system controller. Glad it worked out for you.

He's using UHF so it was because of the trunking tables. He was getting the grant but the channel the controller said to go to was calculated incorrectly by the radio.