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Phase 1 and Phase 2 system P25

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rivera293

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Is it possible to have a system that does phase 2 for some time then goes back to phase 1 and alternates back and forth? If so who controls this? The dispatcher or the system computer? I’m having trouble missing some traffic and I suspect that it’s because of this.


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troymail

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Curious - which system is it you believe "was" Phase 2 and has reverted back to Phase 1?

As far as the question -- I believe there could be a variety of things driving Phase 1 vs. Phase 2 operations but I do not believe any "active" users (other than possibly system admins or technicians during setup, testing, etc.) will directly control this. Indirectly - yes - but I can't imagine directly.

Phase 1 or 2 operation isn't the same as user controlled/driven encryption.

I've seen systems that are Phase 2 being used full time in Phase 1 mode.

There are also Phase 2 systems where a given talkgroup is set up to operate in Phase 2 full time but are allowed to revert temporarily to Phase 1 for the duration of time where a non-Phase 2 radio affiliates with that system/site/talkgroup. This is typically to support mutual aid operations coming in from other jurisdictions that are not Phase 2 ready.

However, I'm pretty sure I've also seem some Phase 2 systems set up where a limited/subset of talkgroups are either fixed/fulltime to be Phase 1 or Phase 2.

Bottom line is the day-to-day users don't (directly) control this as far as I am aware -- the admins and equipment in use do.

Not sure what radio you have but I assume it is a Phase 1 radio only. If Phase 2 is being used from time to time, you will certainly miss some traffic. But there may be other causes-- particularly on a multi-site system. Users on a talkgroup can drift into and affiliate with a site and you may hear them during that time. But just as quickly as they drift into that site, they may drift out onto a different site. Keep in mind (you may already know) that a talkgroup is likely only to be active on any given site while a user radio is both affiliated with that site and switched onto that talkgroup (but there are always exceptions).

All of this can lead to missed voice calls - along with other factors like simulcast if you are using a scanner.

If using a scanner, you may want to try to view the system using something like Pro96Com to see more about how the system is operating.
 

rivera293

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6e2c30278437182cffbd5d4f4b672ff1.png


The reason I’m asking is because of this post. The system i am talking about is at Ford County Kansas. And I’m trying to figure out why sometimes i get the full conversation and sometimes i hear part of it. I was thinking that the system was alternating from phase 1 to 2... but right in the middle of a conversation seems odd.


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troymail

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I suspect this:

Kansas Statewide Interoperable Communication System (KSICS) Trunking System, Statewide, Kansas - Scanner Frequencies

is the system you are referring to.... seems to be the only P25 covering Ford County....

The system appears to be Phase 1 with a single "site" in Ford County. In general, based on available information, there appear to be "sites" set up in each county in Kansas (but I'm sure there are some exceptions).

Anyway - the Ford site appears to be operating under the license WQMN583 which says it is a single transmitter (i.e. not simulcast).

Again, based on the available information, I do not suspect you are encountering Phase 2 (I don't think Phase 2 is even a factor here) so it is likely be something else.

I guess the next question is - which talkgroups are you noticing partial comms on?

I see two talkgroups for Ford County - Sheriff and EMS. However, being a statewide system, I'm sure there are others being heard in Ford County. It looks like Ford still uses numerous conventional frequencies for their operations which isn't all that unusual.

As an aside, I am not sure who you source was for that information - and I can't speak to it's validity beyond what is posted in the RRDB. However, most folks interested in monitoring public safety systems these days are usually advised that if they are getting a new scanner, it should be P25 capable and probably Phase 2 capable. There was a big push towards Phase 2 a while ago but that has dropped off and many systems are and remain Phase 1. The Phase 2 recommendation is simply to avoid you obtaining a new scanner that is only Phase 1 and being limited to Phase 1 monitoring. It's even worse if suddenly the systems you monitor decide to switch to Phase 2 but you only got a Phase 1 radio....

And finally, you may want to request that the moderators move this to the Kansas state forum... You're likely to get more help there.
 

troymail

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ok- based on that thread and the conversation, it sounds like there may now be as many as 3 sites in Ford County. If that is true, it would appear that no one has submitted database updates for the new sites. Also, if true, the last post in the thread you referenced states:

Since there are potentially 3 towers in Ford County that could be carrying traffic it could be an issue of not having all the towers programmed in. If a radio on the DCPD Talkgroup is not "affiliated" with the tower on which the traffic is broadcast, you won't hear anything.
Question is - what are the details of these "three towers"?

And, depending upon various things, even if there are three towers (not sure if they mean "towers" or "sites" which can be confusing), you may not be able to receive all of them from your location.
 

rivera293

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The county has no information about the system, so what your saying is that i should do more research on all of the towers?


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troymail

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FCC license data is showing these 800 mhz frequencies for Ford County (either State licenses or county). You may want to program all of these as conventional and see what is active - particularly - look for any that are a control channel....

851.0125
851.15
851.5125
851.8375
852.4625
852.725
852.975
853.4
853.8625
854.9625
855.2125
855.4875
855.7375
855.9875
856.2375
856.4875
857.2375
857.4875
857.9375
858.2375
858.4875
858.9375
859.2625
859.7125
859.9625
 

troymail

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rivera293

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I’ll try to get a scanner since I’m using an XTS


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troymail

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Additional references:

New radio system goes live - News - Dodge City Daily Globe - Dodge City, KS - Dodge City, KS

“We have threes sites that we put in place with a partnership to the state’s system that is run by Kansas Department of Transportation,” Ford County Communications director Elliot Linke said. “That are located in Bucklin, Spearville and south Dodge City as part of a partnership with KDOT.

Ford County Emergency Communications
August 29 ·
Ford county communications is pleased to announce that we had a very successful cutover to our new radio system! At 05:00 today we successfully moved all public safety operations to the new system! Ford County Communications is now at the cutting edge of public safety communications. This system has coverage and capacity far beyond what the old system had. During very preliminary coverage testing we now have coverage in places where public safety systems have never covered. This will ensure a safer, faster and more efficient response to emergencies in the county. We would like to thank everyone who has worked so hard to make this happen, the Motorola Solutions team, United Wireless and Telcom, Ford County Road and Bridge, and the countless public safety and administrative staff who have helped in so many different ways!
 

rivera293

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So we can assume that they might go encrypted full time or part time


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rivera293

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I’m guessing ford county is a different thing since i cant find anything for county fire and sheriff


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rbrtklamp2

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In my experience if they have enc they will use enc not necessarily on dispatch but tac or car to car may be encrypted at some point. Also if the system is still phase 1 and you are missing some comms they may have enc the portables and mobiles and left dispatch in the clear. Or they left the enc to user select and some officers just aren't turning it on or don't know how to turn it on with out more background information about what you are seeing and hearing it's hard to tell. When the radio misses a call does the red LED light by the antenna start flashing if so it is receiving encrypted comms.

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mike_s104

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Look at Loudoun County VA. It's Phase 2 but if an older radio that is only Phase 1 say from a surrounding county joins (for mutual aid or the use of a helicopter) and is on a TG, that TG will default back to Phase 1 for all radios on that TG.

Only guessing here, but it may be something like that. Maybe only some radios are Phase 2 and when you cannot hear traffic is when all the radios on a TG are Phase 2. And when you can hear traffic is when there is at least a single radio that's Phase 1.

When Loudoun County and the Town of Leesburg moved to Phase 2, Leesburg moved over a lot faster because I think they were a lot smaller and fewer radios. I still see the county TGs showing up as Phase 1 from time to time.

Again, I'm only guessing and offering an idea as to why you're having trouble.

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troymail

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Look at Loudoun County VA. It's Phase 2 but if an older radio that is only Phase 1 say from a surrounding county joins (for mutual aid or the use of a helicopter) and is on a TG, that TG will default back to Phase 1 for all radios on that TG.

Only guessing here, but it may be something like that. Maybe only some radios are Phase 2 and when you cannot hear traffic is when all the radios on a TG are Phase 2. And when you can hear traffic is when there is at least a single radio that's Phase 1.

When Loudoun County and the Town of Leesburg moved to Phase 2, Leesburg moved over a lot faster because I think they were a lot smaller and fewer radios. I still see the county TGs showing up as Phase 1 from time to time.

Again, I'm only guessing and offering an idea as to why you're having trouble.

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This general guidance is similar to one of my first thoughts for this system (once I did some digging and found the new? system may or not be part of the Kansas Statewide system). Definitely would affect the monitoring on Dodge City since they essentially have a dedicated site with talkgroups that may or may not be carried on the other two sites.

However, the issues must be much bigger than that (see post #9 above) -- It would seem that the 3 sites that comprise this new system - online and in use since the end of August - does not appear in the RRDB anywhere.

If someone has figured out the details of the new system, they haven't yet taken the time to submit their findings for others to use. So, the question is, what exact it everyone monitoring?
 

rivera293

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My XTS programmed to the state license of WQYZ271 and this license has three sites in the three different towns in the county and I’m able to receive FCSO EMS and most of the DCPD traffic from this license, however like the posts above there is still 3 licenses i would need to figure out WQZS441 which seems to me it would only be for the city of Dodge (public transport, public works or maybe even DCPD). WQOC389 thats licensed to the state for just my county and the county south of me so its obvious for joint operations between them WQOC388 which is for my county but now adds the county NORTH of me


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