All Threads on Monitoring P25 Are Closed, I Have a Question.

[MFG_rrt]

I tried searching so I wouldn't ask, what I'm sure is, a question that is asked over and over in different ways. I couldn't find anything that can specifically addresses my question.

I am starting to understand the issues with monitoring trunked systems, a little bit, but I can't find a clear answer on whether or not a p25 radio must be affiliated with a system before it can receive.

I'm asking because I'm wondering like I'm sure many have in the past, if it iseven a possibility that a system operator would give authority to a non affiliated person to program their talkgroups into a radio. I have seen different posts about whether or not it may take up resources, but it goes back to whether or not the system requires a radio to be affiliated before it can rx.

You may have seen me posting various questions about the APX 8000 recently, and this goes hand in hand with those. I'm wanting to purchase the 8000, to use on the VHF/UHF conventional side and some P25 for amateur radio in my area, but of course I would like to be able to monitor my local talkgroups for affiliated radios.

Is such a scenario possible to interview with a system operator in my area to ask for permission after a discussion of what my intentions are and for the operator to meet me in person to decide if it seems reasonable or not?

 

[Will001]

If it is possible on an APX8000, do the “hidden talkgroup” method. Basically channels 1-16 are CONVENTIONAL channels programmed for talkgroup scan. Channels 17+are trucked personalities that are being scanned on channels 1-16. Make sure that you don’t have CHUP and CHDN enabled as menu items or on any of the side buttons. Search on Youtube “XTS5000 non affiliate scan”, and there is a video from some guys at Penn State college showing how to program it this way. They do it on a XTS5000, but I’m assuming the 8000 can’t be much different.

One last thing, all of this requires a system key.


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[MFG_rrt]

If it is possible on an APX8000, do the “hidden talkgroup” method. Basically channels 1-16 are CONVENTIONAL channels programmed for talkgroup scan. Channels 17+are trucked personalities that are being scanned on channels 1-16. Make sure that you don’t have CHUP and CHDN enabled as menu items or on any of the side buttons. Search on Youtube “XTS5000 non affiliate scan”, and there is a video from some guys at Penn State college showing how to program it this way. They do it on a XTS5000, but I’m assuming the 8000 can’t be much different.

One last thing, all of this requires a system key.


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Thanks for the advice. So like you said, all of that required a system key. I guess the short version of my question should be: Is it likely for a system admin to grant a non affiliated radio a system key if they feel there is little risk with interfering with affiliated radio use?

 

[Mr_Boh]

Short answer is pretty much any P25 system out there is going to require affiliation to be parked listening to a talkgroup from a subscriber. It can be changed but that’s a good rule of thumb. Therefore you would have to monitor as part of a scan list since most subscribers don’t require affiliation to add a TG to a scan list.

That said I think most radio managers would take the advice of DHS if some rando comes up asking for access to a system or even more simply, asking questions about their system to call the FBI.

Just as an aside based on the questions you are asking it will be more worth your time and money on a Unication or some other scanner. We have guys who are issued 8000s and prefer their G5. On several systems we get better performance out of the G5 and it’s cheaper. We are actually going to start switching over people who have a need to listen but rarely transmit over to them. Reduced the cost of subscribers, reduces management overhead, and keeps the high salary folks who insist on listening happy.

 

[Will001]

That’s very hard to say. Unless you present a good case on why you need the system key, I really don’t think they would just give one away.


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[Mr_Boh]

That’s very hard to say. Unless you present a good case on why you need the system key, I really don’t think they would just give one away.


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lol we have systems we need to interop with and getting system keys is difficult even from them sometimes. There are people who use methods described elsewhere on the internet to get system keys for use in legitimate, mission critical subscribers.

That said, our method around this, and a good piece of advice for anyone is networking. Not everyone at a hamvention is simply a ham. It’s amazing who you can meet and information you can find through networking, and it has granted us access and information to useful systems and agencies.

 

[zz0468]

There are some tricks that can be done in programming a radio to not affiliate and allow listening. There should be specific threads on how to do that. There's nothing inherent to a P25 trunked system to disallow that. Scanners do it, but I'm not 100% convinced an APX can. Someone will chime in about that.

There a few gotchas, though. If it's a larger multicell system, talkgroups won't even be routed to a cell if there isn't a radio affiliated to that cell on that tg. This is true even for authorized radios on a system. Scan operation on a wide area system can be an exercise in frustration.

I seriously doubt any system operators would give you the time of day. I wouldn't even be polite about telling someone making such a query to get bent. You need to program the radio for no affiliation, if that's possible, using only information you get about the system from here.

No one will help you with the required system key.

Edit: and others chimed in while I was writing this.

 

[MFG_rrt]

Short answer is pretty much any P25 system out there is going to require affiliation to be parked listening to a talkgroup from a subscriber. It can be changed but that’s a good rule of thumb. Therefore you would have to monitor as part of a scan list since most subscribers don’t require affiliation to add a TG to a scan list.

That said I think most radio managers would take the advice of DHS if some rando comes up asking for access to a system or even more simply, asking questions about their system to call the FBI.

Just as an aside based on the questions you are asking it will be more worth your time and money on a Unication or some other scanner. We have guys who are issued 8000s and prefer their G5. On several systems we get better performance out of the G5 and it’s cheaper. We are actually going to start switching over people who have a need to listen but rarely transmit over to them. Reduced the cost of subscribers, reduces management overhead, and keeps the high salary folks who insist on listening happy.

That’s very hard to say. Unless you present a good case on why you need the system key, I really don’t think they would just give one away.


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lol we have systems we need to interop with and getting system keys is difficult even from them sometimes. There are people who use methods described elsewhere on the internet to get system keys for use in legitimate, mission critical subscribers.

That said, our method around this, and a good piece of advice for anyone is networking. Not everyone at a hamvention is simply a ham. It’s amazing who you can meet and information you can find through networking, and it has granted us access and information to useful systems and agencies.

Thanks for the information. I'm certainly not trying to get on any 3-letter organizations watch list hahaha.

 

[zacabo]

It is possible to setup the APX 7/8000 for unaffiliated scanning. Similar to the XTS5000

 

[MFG_rrt]

It is possible to setup the APX 7/8000 for unaffiliated scanning. Similar to the XTS5000

Are you confirming your comment in your previous post? If that's the case, will it even accomplish what I'm seeking if my radio wouldn't receive the TG calls since I'm not affiliated?

 

[SCPD]

I tried searching so I wouldn't ask, what I'm sure is, a question that is asked over and over in different ways. I couldn't find anything that can specifically addresses my question.

I am starting to understand the issues with monitoring trunked systems, a little bit, but I can't find a clear answer on whether or not a p25 radio must be affiliated with a system before it can receive.

I'm asking because I'm wondering like I'm sure many have in the past, if it iseven a possibility that a system operator would give authority to a non affiliated person to program their talkgroups into a radio. I have seen different posts about whether or not it may take up resources, but it goes back to whether or not the system requires a radio to be affiliated before it can rx.

You may have seen me posting various questions about the APX 8000 recently, and this goes hand in hand with those. I'm wanting to purchase the 8000, to use on the VHF/UHF conventional side and some P25 for amateur radio in my area, but of course I would like to be able to monitor my local talkgroups for affiliated radios.

Is such a scenario possible to interview with a system operator in my area to ask for permission after a discussion of what my intentions are and for the operator to meet me in person to decide if it seems reasonable or not?

Quick response is no system admin will release their key to general public.

 

[zz0468]

Are you confirming your comment in your previous post? If that's the case, will it even accomplish what I'm seeking if my radio wouldn't receive the TG calls since I'm not affiliated?

Be aware that even for non affiliation scanning, the system key is required for programming. You'll find that to be the biggest single stumbling block.

The software won't let you change any trunking system parameters, or add talkgroups, etc. unless the syskey is loaded.

No system operator out there will provide you with the system key.

 

[MFG_rrt]

Quick response is no system admin will release their key to general public.

Be aware that even for non affiliation scanning, the system key is required for programming. You'll find that to be the biggest single stumbling block.

The software won't let you change any trunking system parameters, or add talkgroups, etc. unless the syskey is loaded.

No system operator out there will provide you with the system key.

Understandable. Thanks.

 

[zacabo]

Are you confirming your comment in your previous post? If that's the case, will it even accomplish what I'm seeking if my radio wouldn't receive the TG calls since I'm not affiliated?

Your radio would not need to affiliate to receive. I have multiple XTS5000 and three APX 7/8000 programmed
to scan the local police and fire. You need to get the system key which is not hard to do with a little research. I would not even bother a system admin and try to explain why you would want access to their system. If you can't figure out how to get the system key you should probably just use a scanner instead. Programming the radio can be daunting if you don't have experience and trying to get it all programmed and working correctly takes a fair amount of time depending on the amount of talkgroups you want to scan.

 

[zz0468]

You need to get the system key which is not hard to do with a little research.

You really think "a little research" will get him an ASK for a P25 system?

I don't.

 

[MFG_rrt]

You really think "a little research" will get him an ASK for a P25 system?

I don't.

You're probably right, but he's probably assuming (right or wrong) that I at least have some knowledge on who or what to ask for some of those answers.

 

[zacabo]

You really think "a little research" will get him an ASK for a P25 system?



I don't.

Many other people have used the unaffiliated scanning method. There are videos online and guide you can follow.

He doesn’t need and ASK. Advanced system keys are used when programming and keys and configured to limit users programming capabilities. As an example certain keys may only allow basic police dispatch and secondary talkgroups while another key allows the user to program encrypted tac talkgroups. Basically an end user can’t read their radio and modify their radio outside what is allowed per the ASK.

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=60916

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[zz0468]

You're probably right, but he's probably assuming (right or wrong) that I at least have some knowledge on who or what to ask for some of those answers.

Yeah, you're really better off not going there. That's crossing the line from being a hobbyist with a scanner, and a hacker capable of doing some damage. It's also why systems are requiring advanced system keys (ASK) and hardware keys where a dongle is required to be plugged in.

 

[zz0468]

In any case, a key is required within CPS to access trunked programming features in a radio. Even for non-affiliate scanning. CPS simply won't let you in without a key.

Many other people have used the unaffiliated scanning method. There are videos online and guide you can follow.

He doesn’t need and ASK. Advanced system keys are used when programming and keys and configured to limit users programming capabilities. As an example certain keys may only allow basic police dispatch and secondary talkgroups while another key allows the user to program encrypted tac talkgroups. Basically an end user can’t read their radio and modify their radio outside what is allowed per the ASK.

Advanced System Key - Batboard

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[mmckenna]

I guess the short version of my question should be: Is it likely for a system admin to grant a non affiliated radio a system key if they feel there is little risk with interfering with affiliated radio use?

I administer a trunked system.

The answer is:
Sure, I'll give you a system key, just as soon as you give me a key to your house and let me know when you are going on vacation. I promise not to steal your stuff, but I cannot guarantee that I won't pass the key on to someone else or that I won't make copies of the key and give them out to others.

Answer is no. No system admin would give a system key to out. Issue is that once you let that key out, it's no longer controlled. No way to know who ends up with it. No way to control if it gets passed on to 1 other person or a hundred thousand other hobbyists.

If someone has a legitimate need to access my system, they can do it the same way everyone else does.