FirstNet vs P25 Implementation

[Wcrock12]

Just curious, what is the pace of implementation of FirstNet? If you look at their website, they appear to be kinda ready now! I am guessing states and local counties will let their P25 and analog systems obsolete first, but are departments planning any wholesale switch overs?

Just curious since it’s been in a lot of news lately!

 

[Thunderknight]

It’s not really the same thing. While you can do PTT voice on FirstNet, it’s not mission critical. It’s primarily a data network at this time. Plus the coverage is the same as AT&T so in areas with cell coverage issues, it will need to improve first.
While some departments may move to FirstNet, it’s not a replacement for P25 right now. Remember, P25 took years to be tested and proven before it was trusted, so I imagine FirstNet will too.

 

[Wcrock12]

Thanks, and that’s what I thought, and you know how advertising goes. I work guess, initially, the voice service would be like Zello or TeamSpeak.

 

[ResQguy]

Thanks, and that’s what I thought, and you know how advertising goes. I work guess, initially, the voice service would be like Zello or TeamSpeak.

The FirstNet voice service of choice is currently ESChat or Kodiak. As far as the rest of your question, https://www.firstnet.gov/sites/default/files/FirstNet LMR Factsheet_150901.pdf

 

[mmckenna]

The FirstNet core was turned up earlier this spring. Turning up LTE Band 14 is in process, but that's going to take upwards of 5 years to complete.
AT&T is putting FirstNet on the existing LTE bands now, before Band 14 is fully rolled out. The preemption (Public safety users take priority over consumers, as in kicks them off the cell) will be turned up over the next year.

FirstNet is never going to cover 100% of the population or the country. Here in California, the plan is to provide:
99.8% of California's population.
98.7% of California's rural population.
77.2% of California's Geography.

Also, the FirstNet network is supposed to provide 99.99% uptime, which is good, but less than what a well built/designed dedicated system will do. Usually "Five 9's" (99.999%) is considered good for a telephone system.
99.999% up time equals about 5.26 minutes of down time a year.
99.99% up time equals 52.56 minutes of down time a year.
Either way, downtime sucks, especially for public safety, but comparing 5 minutes versus almost 1 hour is a big deal.

So, based on the geographic coverage and the "four 9's" uptime, it's never going to be a service that replaces a properly built and designed dedicated 2 way radio system.

Even FirstNet is saying "keep your radio system".
Likely some departments will want to try to jump to FirstNet for everything, especially when they provide Push To Talk service, just like they did when NexTel came to town, but it'll likely turn out the same way.

The other issue is that simplex communications (handset to handset) haven't been addressed yet. Even if they do, the handsets are pretty low powered, so it's going to rely heavily on the AT&T/FirstNet infrastructure.


What will happen is less voice traffic will be carried over the radio. As it becomes easier to send photos, video, Computer Aided Dispatch, and similar stuff over FirstNet, dedicated voice dispatching will scale back.



Another neat approach to look at is that some new LMR radios designed for public safety use will include an LTE module. That will let a two way radio that is outside the LMR system coverage connect back via FirstNet. If that takes off well, it's going to be an interesting solution for addressing coverage deficiencies...

 

[n1das]

There are a few new ruggedized phones recommended for FirstNet use. The #1 pick appears to be the Sonim XP8 ruggedized smartphone, sold through AT&T. Sonim appears to have gone totally all-in on making only ruggedized phones and ruggedized accessories for them.

Sonim XP8:
https://sonimtech.com/xp8/

Sonim announces ultra-rugged devices coming to FirstNet:
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...nces-New-Ultra-Rugged-Devices-Coming-FirstNet
The XP8 has Band 14 and is capable of operating at higher transmit power (+31 dBm) on Band 14 for FirstNet users compared to a maximum of +23 dBm on the other LTE bands. The XP8 also comes with a 4900 mAh battery that's swappable. I'm curious to see what the SAR data looks like while transmitting at +31 dBm next to a person's head.

ESChat recommends Sonim XP8:
https://www.eschat.com/index.php?page=devices

I recently replaced my cell phones for my wife and I and we each have a Sonim XP8. It is absolutely the best phone I've ever owned. Price is $699, same as a Google Pixel 2. While the XP8 is marketed to Public Safety First Responders, anybody can buy it. I only buy my phones outright so there's no contract involved. $700 seems to be the sweet spot for a smartphone that's any good. I'm not sure why anyone would want to pay $999 for an iPhone X.

While I am not eligible for FirstNet or ESChat, I regularly use PTToC. My wife and I use AT&T Enhanced PTT (EPTT) and Zello apps for our PTT use. AT&T's EPTT and Verizon's Push to Talk Plus (PTT+) appear to be Kodiak based. I don't know about Zello other than we've been using the free version with friends for several years.

https://kodiakptt.com/
https://kodiakptt.com/carriers-and-resellers/

 

[n1das]

Another neat approach to look at is that some new LMR radios designed for public safety use will include an LTE module. That will let a two way radio that is outside the LMR system coverage connect back via FirstNet. If that takes off well, it's going to be an interesting solution for addressing coverage deficiencies...

The Hytera PDC/PTC 760 comes to mind:
Hytera

* DROOL *

 

[Project25_MASTR]

It’s not really the same thing. While you can do PTT voice on FirstNet, it’s not mission critical. It’s primarily a data network at this time. Plus the coverage is the same as AT&T so in areas with cell coverage issues, it will need to improve first.
While some departments may move to FirstNet, it’s not a replacement for P25 right now. Remember, P25 took years to be tested and proven before it was trusted, so I imagine FirstNet will too.

The main issue with FirstNet is that PTToLTE does not currently meet P16 standards for acquisition times and delays (which are the same as those in P25). Cellular encode to decode latency (even for two units standing next to one another) is approximately 2100 ms. For P25, across RFSS the max is 500 ms.

The FirstNet core was turned up earlier this spring. Turning up LTE Band 14 is in process, but that's going to take upwards of 5 years to complete.
AT&T is putting FirstNet on the existing LTE bands now, before Band 14 is fully rolled out. The preemption (Public safety users take priority over consumers, as in kicks them off the cell) will be turned up over the next year.

FirstNet is never going to cover 100% of the population or the country. Here in California, the plan is to provide:
99.8% of California's population.
98.7% of California's rural population.
77.2% of California's Geography.

Also, the FirstNet network is supposed to provide 99.99% uptime, which is good, but less than what a well built/designed dedicated system will do. Usually "Five 9's" (99.999%) is considered good for a telephone system.
99.999% up time equals about 5.26 minutes of down time a year.
99.99% up time equals 52.56 minutes of down time a year.
Either way, downtime sucks, especially for public safety, but comparing 5 minutes versus almost 1 hour is a big deal.

So, based on the geographic coverage and the "four 9's" uptime, it's never going to be a service that replaces a properly built and designed dedicated 2 way radio system.

Even FirstNet is saying "keep your radio system".
Likely some departments will want to try to jump to FirstNet for everything, especially when they provide Push To Talk service, just like they did when NexTel came to town, but it'll likely turn out the same way.

The other issue is that simplex communications (handset to handset) haven't been addressed yet. Even if they do, the handsets are pretty low powered, so it's going to rely heavily on the AT&T/FirstNet infrastructure.


What will happen is less voice traffic will be carried over the radio. As it becomes easier to send photos, video, Computer Aided Dispatch, and similar stuff over FirstNet, dedicated voice dispatching will scale back.



Another neat approach to look at is that some new LMR radios designed for public safety use will include an LTE module. That will let a two way radio that is outside the LMR system coverage connect back via FirstNet. If that takes off well, it's going to be an interesting solution for addressing coverage deficiencies...

I actually have a friend with a FirstNet SIM in Houston. Officially, his is one of twenty eight currently active nationwide. They are having some core issues momentarily which are not allowing MMS and some other data to cross between AT&T's regular core and the FirstNet core. Voice traffic seems to work though. Another thing that many don't realize, AT&T fully intends to resell excess bandwidth on Band 14 sites to consumers until preemption becomes a need.

 

[n1das]

I actually have a friend with a FirstNet SIM in Houston. Officially, his is one of twenty eight currently active nationwide. They are having some core issues momentarily which are not allowing MMS and some other data to cross between AT&T's regular core and the FirstNet core. Voice traffic seems to work though. Another thing that many don't realize, AT&T fully intends to resell excess bandwidth on Band 14 sites to consumers until preemption becomes a need.

I notice a long initial call setup time at the beginning of an AT&T EPTT call. The setup time is often around a full 2 seconds before getting the floor grant chirp. Once the call is set up, the floor grant time for subsequent PTTs appears to be well under a second. The EPTT call appears have a hang time of around 12 seconds. As long as subsequent PTTs occur within the 12 second hang time, it is fast. The initial EPTT call setup time is what takes a while.

The audio delay from phone to phone through the network is not an issue for me.

So I as a consumer would be able to use Band 14 as part of the excess bandwidth unless there's a need for preemption, right?


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[mmckenna]

So I as a consumer would be able to use Band 14 as part of the excess bandwidth unless there's a need for preemption, right?

All AT&T customers with 700MHz capable LTE phones will be able to access Band 14 when space is available. If you are not running a FirstNet SIM, you'll get kicked off due to preemption.

Verizon is making a lot of noise about FirstNet. They are trying (and in many cases can) meet the same service levels as FirstNet and claim better overall coverage, without all the government funding.

We're looking at FirstNet, especially since the negotiated prices are pretty decent. If that forces Verizon to match prices, it'll be good for everyone.

 

[n1das]

All AT&T customers with 700MHz capable LTE phones will be able to access Band 14 when space is available. If you are not running a FirstNet SIM, you'll get kicked off due to preemption.

That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.

My Sonim XP8 is Band 14 capable. I assume I will be limited to a maximum of +23dBm transmit power on Band 14 whereas FirstNet users will be allowed to run up to the maximum transmit power of +31dBm. Is this correct?? Having 4900 mAh of battery in the XP8 is turning out to be real nice.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[mmckenna]

I assume I will be limited to a maximum of +23dBm transmit power on Band 14 whereas FirstNet users will be allowed to run up to the maximum transmit power of +31dBm. Is this correct??

I don't know, haven't researched that part of it.

Having 4900 mAh of battery in the XP8 is turning out to be real nice.

Yeah, I bet. I miss having a big battery on my phone. I've looked at the Sonim phones and almost got one last year when my work phone ate it.

 

[n1das]

The +31dBm max transmit power level for FirstNet users should help in fringe coverage areas. Usually it's the phone not being heard by the cell site is where service usually craps out.

There are several threads in the HowardForums.com forums regarding the FirstNet buildout. There's a Band 14 sightings thread there too.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[mmckenna]

The +31dBm max transmit power level for FirstNet users should help in fringe coverage areas. Usually it's the phone not being heard by the cell site is where service usually craps out.

I think where it's really going to shine is in mobile/MDT use, at least that is where we are looking at it.
Just having a good external antenna makes a big difference.

The FirstNet/AT&T guys we've been talking to are really pushing having a FirstNet radio in the vehicle feeding a WiFi hotspot for the user.

There are several threads in the HowardForums.com forums regarding the FirstNet buildout. There's a Band 14 sightings thread there too.

I'll have to take a look, been too busy with other projects. I've heard they've turned up a few sites, but none local.

 

[krokus]

I think where it's really going to shine is in mobile/MDT use, at least that is where we are looking at it.
Just having a good external antenna makes a big difference.

The FirstNet/AT&T guys we've been talking to are really pushing having a FirstNet radio in the vehicle feeding a WiFi hotspot for the user.

I am considering getting these into my FD's vehicles, for Active911 accessibility, and the in AVL function it offers. (Including showing responding on-call personnel.)

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I notice a long initial call setup time at the beginning of an AT&T EPTT call. The setup time is often around a full 2 seconds before getting the floor grant chirp. Once the call is set up, the floor grant time for subsequent PTTs appears to be well under a second. The EPTT call appears have a hang time of around 12 seconds. As long as subsequent PTTs occur within the 12 second hang time, it is fast. The initial EPTT call setup time is what takes a while.

We were playing with it a bit on the Sonim XP5's (AT&T's ePTT) a little over a year and a half ago. Setup time was how you mentioned but audio encode to decode once the call was setup was still 2100 ms. Got to play with Wave2 at Motorola while hanging out in the Astro lab. Call setup wasn't bad (they had a cell there in the building) but the encode/decode latency across the system was still 2100 ms (using a LEX F10). I asked one of the Motorola engineers about it and was told part of it is due to the software DSP. They could integrate hardware DSP into the handsets but at this current point in time it would cause the prices of the handsets increase by a factor of 5 (putting them in the $5,000 range) which just wasn't a practical goal for the application which is why it was suggested PTToLTE be used for secondary services if there is ever a need to offload an Astro 25 system due to loading/funding issues.

Verizon is making a lot of noise about FirstNet. They are trying (and in many cases can) meet the same service levels as FirstNet and claim better overall coverage, without all the government funding.

Personally, I think Verizon has better LTE coverage in rural America compared to LTE. I can name plenty of examples in west Texas and eastern New Mexico from my experiences in the Permian Basin to support this as well as situations I've seen in Colorado and other parts of Texas.

 

[bchappuie]

All Verizon has to do is provision their MME's to support preemption capability to compete. I can't even think of how large of a disaster would have to be where Public Safety would need to enact the pre-emption. All the carriers have lots of capacity in their radio networks and adding more every day.

 

[mmckenna]

Personally, I think Verizon has better LTE coverage in rural America compared to LTE. I can name plenty of examples in west Texas and eastern New Mexico from my experiences in the Permian Basin to support this as well as situations I've seen in Colorado and other parts of Texas.

I agree with that. AT&T has some gaping holes out in my area, and not just out in the sticks, along major highways and roads. They've got a lot of catching up to do. We were pressing them on that during the FirstNet meetings, and they seemed to be well aware they've got some major coverage holes.
Verizon has been putting up a lot of utility pole top cells locally, and it's really working well.

At work, I've split my staff up, half are on Verizon, half are on AT&T, so someone is almost always reachable. Adding WPS/GETS, and it works out well enough for what we need right now. My phone is on AT&T and I regret it sometimes, but not enough to switch.
My wife's phone in on AT&T, and due to contracts, I'm stuck there for a while. Going to look at it next time it's up. Hopefully FirstNet will force AT&T into improving coverage.

 

[mmckenna]

All Verizon has to do is provision their MME's to support preemption capability to compete. I can't even think of how large of a disaster would have to be where Public Safety would need to enact the pre-emption. All the carriers have lots of capacity in their radio networks and adding more every day.

Depends entirely on where you are. I work for a research university with about 30K people during the day. Very easy for an event to overload the cellular networks. Cell phones become useless without WPS activated for voice calls. For data, it's really difficult to get much through.
They have improved a lot, but having the ability to preempt for public safety traffic is going to be important.

None of this will replace public safety two way radio networks anytime soon, if at all. AT&T won't guarantee the uptime that a well built LMR system has. Even on FirstNet.

What this is going to do if force Verizon and other major carriers to up their own games. That should be a win for everyone, even the consumers.

 

[mmckenna]

All Verizon has to do is provision their MME's to support preemption capability to compete. I can't even think of how large of a disaster would have to be where Public Safety would need to enact the pre-emption. All the carriers have lots of capacity in their radio networks and adding more every day.

A couple of events that proved the frailty of the cellular networks for me:

Earthquake, not a big one, but 5.6 or so several years ago. This was back when Nextel was popular and most of us at work got forced over to it. After the earthquake my Nextel phone was able to connect to the network, however I could not get a phone call or direct connect call through their system for over 30 minutes. AT&T and Verizon had the same issues.

Major fiber cut in our area (vandalism/terrorism, depending on who you believe) took out all wireline, cellular and internet for our county back in 2008. Again, you could connect to the local cell site, but zero calls, text messages, or internet access. Since all the switching was done somewhere else, none of the cell sites could do anything other than broadcast their control channel. None of the cell carriers worked. Satellite phone or LMR radios were the only ways to communicate. Issue was that AT&T wireline had slowly eroded their own network in the name of cost savings and the push to fiber, but failed to build in redundancy that was outside the same cable path. Since (at the time) they were the only game in the area, all services, phone, cellular, internet, etc. all passed through the same fiber optic cables on their way in/out of the area. A major black eye for AT&T in our area. They got panned pretty hard by all the local agencies for completely blowing it. Took almost 24 hours for them to get all services back up and running.

I've host a few cellular carriers at some of my sites. None of them have generators. Battery backups are minimal, 4 hours at best. Maintenance is minimal, usually just enough to keep us from complaining as the landlords. Connections back to their own networks run on either existing AT&T fiber or cable TV company connections. No microwave. Some are still running T-1's through AT&T.

While things have improved slightly since 2008, it's not enough. I won't let my family rely on cell phones as their only form of communications. At work, we keep a satellite phones on hand as well as a few MSAT terminals. We still issue critical staff two way radios. We've also built our own redundant fiber paths to POPs in opposite directions outside our county

Cellular companies will sometimes try to sell themselves as a safety net, however they fall short and will admit it when pressed. At this time, they are fine for consumer use, but they've got a long way to go before they'll ever be considered "public safety" grade services.