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Old 02-26-2017, 8:55 AM
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Default Wake County system in RRDB

My apologies if this has come up before (including possibly from me) and answered but I'm wondering if someone can help me to help another user who is having problems with this system:

Wake County Simulcast Trunking System, Various, North Carolina - Scanner Frequencies

Here's the problem report thread and my response...

http://forums.radioreference.com/sca...ml#post2723415

I'll be more than happy to admit I was wrong if someone can offer any information suggesting what is posted for the system is in fact accurate....

If in fact the information is flawed, is there anyone in the area that can help get the database information corrected?

Thanks
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Old 02-26-2017, 8:58 AM
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I will take a look at the database listing later this afternoon.
Thanks for the reminder on this.
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Old 02-26-2017, 9:00 AM
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Thanks Marshall... Does this mean you remember this issue coming up in the past?
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Old 02-26-2017, 9:07 AM
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It means it has been on my to do list lately but "real life" has gotten in the way. I have some time this afternoon I can devote to getting this squared away. Few other folks know this system as well as yours truly so getting it cleaned up should not be a problem
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Old 02-26-2017, 9:11 AM
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Cool, cool.
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Old 02-26-2017, 1:51 PM
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Alright folks. I have paired the database listing back to the correct current 24 frequencies being used. I have also done some much needed talkgroup cleanup. Hopefully downloading from all software packages should be much easier now.

As a reminder: The Wake County system is still operating in 4.1 Rebanded format at this time even though they are operating off Cary's core. They are using a nifty device that Moto offers called a Smart-X box to translate between Wake's 4.1 CC and Cary's P25 Core.
The Wake County Prime site shows up as Site 10 and Fuquay Varina is site 11 for the time being.

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Old 02-26-2017, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KE4ZNR View Post
Alright folks. I have paired the database listing back to the correct current 24 frequencies being used. I have also done some much needed talkgroup cleanup. Hopefully downloading from all software packages should be much easier now.

As a reminder: The Wake County system is still operating in 4.1 Rebanded format at this time even though they are operating off Cary's core. They are using a nifty device that Moto offers called a Smart-X box to translate between Wake's 4.1 CC and Cary's P25 Core.
The Wake County Prime site shows up as Site 10 and Fuquay Varina is site 11 for the time being.

Marshall KE4ZNR
Thanks Marshall -- it does look better but I'm surprised to see the same frequencies being used for two sites. Must be something to do with that nifty Moto device....

Seems like if you're "in the middle" of the two sites (near Fuquay Varina/both "sites" are in range), you really don't know which site you're monitoring/on -- maybe that's the point?
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Old 02-26-2017, 2:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troymail View Post
Thanks Marshall -- it does look better but I'm surprised to see the same frequencies being used for two sites. Must be something to do with that nifty Moto device....

Seems like if you're "in the middle" of the two sites (near Fuquay Varina/both "sites" are in range), you really don't know which site you're monitoring/on -- maybe that's the point?
I went ahead and deleted the Fuquay site for now. Might have to rethink that after I get back to work and do some investigating. Additional sites such as Fuquay and a Northeast Raleigh IR site show up when you run T88 or Unitrunker or look at the site info off the CC on a current scanner but since it is all one silmulcast system I am trying to figure out the best way to handle it.

The smart-x box only translates from 4.1 to P25 and vice versa. We had one when we were slowly migrating our users to P25 and had essentially 2 radio systems on the air at the same time. It works great and is invisible to the outside world.

I will mull on the site listing situation but for now if you use the main site listed you will be fine in 99.9% of the coverage area reception wise.

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Old 02-26-2017, 2:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KE4ZNR View Post
I went ahead and deleted the Fuquay site for now. Might have to rethink that after I get back to work and do some investigating. Additional sites such as Fuquay and a Northeast Raleigh IR site show up when you run T88 or Unitrunker or look at the site info off the CC on a current scanner but since it is all one silmulcast system I am trying to figure out the best way to handle it.

The smart-x box only translates from 4.1 to P25 and vice versa. We had one when we were slowly migrating our users to P25 and had essentially 2 radio systems on the air at the same time. It works great and is invisible to the outside world.

I will mull on the site listing situation but for now if you use the main site listed you will be fine in 99.9% of the coverage area reception wise.

Marshall KE4ZNR
Cool, cool.... Interesting how this is playing out.... I really need to find records of this coming up in the past ... at this point, I'm just curious how long this has been in need of attention

Thanks
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Old 02-26-2017, 2:30 PM
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Bam! Found it!

http://forums.radioreference.com/rad...atus-bits.html

Thanks Google!
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Old 02-26-2017, 2:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troymail View Post
I think he figured out his deal.

As indicated in the RR Wiki:
Wake County (NC) Raleigh PD Monitoring Guide - The RadioReference Wiki

Raleigh PD patches their Districts together: NWD->SWD, NOD->NED, and SED->DTD. If you have status bits turned on it could cause you some confusion unless you know how they handle dispatching. If you have status bits set to off or ignore then you should be good no problem.

The actual talkgroups listed in the database for the Wake County system are correct.

The duplications you noted earlier were an emergency talkgroup that got duplicated and the LE EAST Talkgroup was listed multiple times under the various towns that use it. I have cleaned up those duplications and now the database is good to go.
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Old 02-26-2017, 2:51 PM
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The Fuquay IR is completely separate from the zone 10 Wake simulcast and I believe has a reduced channel capacity in comparison. While both the IR & simulcast can carry the same traffic, I don't think all the TGs on the simulcast are forced across the IR. By removing the Fuquay site from the database that's going to create a big hole in reception for folks that live in the south end of the county. I would leave it for now and geo-tag it to the site with a reduced radius since it is a fill-in IR site and only list the primary control channel which I show as 853.925 as of a few weeks ago when I was in town. Just a thought as we have dealt with similar system setups down around Charlotte in the past.
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Old 02-26-2017, 3:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpetman View Post
The Fuquay IR is completely separate from the zone 10 Wake simulcast and I believe has a reduced channel capacity in comparison. While both the IR & simulcast can carry the same traffic, I don't think all the TGs on the simulcast are forced across the IR. By removing the Fuquay site from the database that's going to create a big hole in reception for folks that live in the south end of the county. I would leave it for now and geo-tag it to the site with a reduced radius since it is a fill-in IR site and only list the primary control channel which I show as 853.925 as of a few weeks ago when I was in town. Just a thought as we have dealt with similar system setups down around Charlotte in the past.
Thats actually a very good point and I have re-added the Fuquay site to the database

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Old 02-26-2017, 5:40 PM
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Default Brier Creek

I believe the site at Brier Creek shows up as Site 12 and the last time I was at RDU, it had a different control channel than the Simulcast system. I'm not near a scanner right now so I can't post the frequency right now. As I recall, RPD was the only thing that would affiliate with that site.
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Old 02-26-2017, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KG4KHQ View Post
I believe the site at Brier Creek shows up as Site 12 and the last time I was at RDU, it had a different control channel than the Simulcast system. I'm not near a scanner right now so I can't post the frequency right now. As I recall, RPD was the only thing that would affiliate with that site.
Try 853.9625 for Brier Creek.
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Old 04-30-2018, 7:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KE4ZNR View Post
Thats actually a very good point and I have re-added the Fuquay site to the database

Marshall KE4ZNR
At long last, I finally had a chance to monitor the Wake system (both sites) for several days this past weekend. I captured 5200+ audio recordings over almost 2 days with one radio dedicated to the system.

The two sites clearly are two sites - each with it's own control channel and activity.

However, the frequency listing in the RRDB still appears to be showing both sites using all of the same frequencies which has never looked right to me.

Looking over the data, the following seems to be the breakdown in the primary control channel and voice frequencies in use for the two sites (at least between Friday afternoon and Sunday afternoon). Note there is no overlap of the voice frequencies on the two sites....

Wake Simulcast
853.5375 control
851.0375
851.2
851.2625
851.2875
851.4625
851.5375
851.625
851.7625
851.9625
852.15
852.2625
852.65
852.7875
852.9625
853.2
853.2625
853.65

Fauquay-Varina
853.925 control
851.125
851.7
852.0375
852.4625
852.7625
853.0375
855.4625

I guess I should have tried to run Unitrunker to determine the split of the alternate control channels.... maybe someone local in the area can do that.....

This issue with the current entry in the database is that with all frequencies assigned to both sites (particularly the control channels), you radio really doesn't know which site it is monitoring (even if you try to force it by splitting the two sites into two systems to try to force monitoring of both sites).
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Old 04-30-2018, 7:25 AM
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I show the Wake simulcast as having 853.9625, 853.7875, 853.5375, & 853.1500 as control channels and the Fuquay site has 853.9250, 853.4625, 852.7625, 852.2875.
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Old 04-30-2018, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpetman View Post
I show the Wake simulcast as having 853.9625, 853.7875, 853.5375, & 853.1500 as control channels and the Fuquay site has 853.9250, 853.4625, 852.7625, 852.2875.
Excellent - between these two sets of info, we should now be able to "clean up" the database information!
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Old 05-01-2018, 2:23 PM
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Great work guys. Impressive. So, are there really only 2 transmission towers for Wake Simulcast?

I will run Unitrunker. What data do you want and how long do you want me to run it?

Last edited by BCasto; 05-01-2018 at 2:42 PM..
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Old 05-01-2018, 6:03 PM
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Great work guys. Impressive. So, are there really only 2 transmission towers for Wake Simulcast?

I will run Unitrunker. What data do you want and how long do you want me to run it?

There are two "zones". There is a simulcast zone/cell that is made up of 9 sites using all the same frequencies. They are synchronized with a GPS timing source so that they may all transmit at the same time and cause very little interference in the field. That way you can hear the control channel across the county like it's a single site, even though it takes multiple towers to achieve this coverage.

The Fuquay Intelirepeater site (commonly abbreviated as IR site) stands by itself on the south end of the county. As mentioned above a simulcast system is not 100% free of interference. As you add more sites and increase spacing between sites the time delay causes null zones or harmful interference zones that even commercial grade radios can't survive effectively in. As a workaround a new site is created with separate frequencies but is still networked so as long as the talkgroups are allowed across both zones, it is seamless to the end user if they are on a channel on different towers.

You will see this tactic on larger systems with dynamic terrain. Dare County uses a simulcast system with an ASR (a P25 IR) on Buxton due to the distance from the simulcast and the odd propogation characteristics. Buncombe County has 15 sites that are divided into two simulcast cells due to the complexity of engineering a single 15 site simulcast in mountainous terrain across such a large county.

To the end user, there are 2 "sites" but on the backend of the RF magic, there are actually multiple sites that make up a single zone. Clear as mud right?

Also the Wake system has been updated with the frequencies posted above and the correct control channels are loaded for both sites.
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