Interoperability in Wake County

[BCasto]

Not long ago I was monitoring Wake Simulcast when a bank robbery occurred in Apex. I could clearly hear Apex PD in pursuit on Wake Simulcast. Wake County SO jumped in to assist using Viper. Quickly moving south, Lee County SO was assisting.

None of the cars were talking directly to each other. The dispatchers were relaying information as it was broadcast. It was so strange to hear Apex PD announce a change in direction, a turn in the pursuit - then to hear the dispatchers of the 2 counties repeat the radio message to their cars.

Eventually the robbers were caught. But what about interoperability? Isn't a strong benefit of these new digital systems the promise of interoperability? Why isn't it done? Are the reasons political, financial, technical, or what?

 

[troymail]

I recall a discussion about a chase in the central Maryland area recently with the same issues - according to reports, they ended up with officers from adjacent jurisdictions standing next to each other relaying information from one system to another.

There's only two ways of getting around this:

- ability to directly connect/patch between systems - probably harder than it sounds

- ability for officers to switch to another jurisdiction's system on their radio; this works fairly well for fire incidents as they are generally stationary - but how do you handle an incident that is "moving" - particularly across jurisdictional boundaries?

Some areas have statewide or regional systems but unless everyone is on that system at the start, that presents a challenge.

You don't want an officer who is in pursuit - in a car by himself - to be playing with changing zones and talkgroups on a radio while driving (chasing)....

I've wondered if anyone has actually taken some of these "moving" scenarios and developed an idea of how it could/should work for radio communications/coordination given various system scenarios -- using as-is systems and/or a futuristic "to-be" system concept. On the other hand, they may have just decided that radio relay is the best solution.

 

[WA4MJF]

Sometimes the two way industry gets to fancy for things to work easily. Back in the day, when I was on the road in NE NC, we had what we called mutual aid on VHF. Repeater output was 155.25 Mcs or Mhz, can't remember when that was invented. I recall it was my channel 4, and if in a chase, just switch there, and
every county had it. so if they were gonna get in on the operation the county told its units to switch to Mutual Aid. Before that we were ALL on 39.10 Mcs so no switching nor notification was needed as I could run from Halifax County to Dare county and all LE on 39.10 Mcs.
We had scanners to listen to A Troop and its 3 KW station in Williamston and the Patrolmen had scanners with 39.10 and we could talk cross channel. Could not do that today LOL.

 

[Toad_77]

Are 8 Call 90 and 8 Tac 91-94 not a thing there? Even if there aren't repeaters they can be used simplex.

 

[troymail]

Sometimes the two way industry gets to fancy for things to work easily. Back in the day, when I was on the road in NE NC, we had what we called mutual aid on VHF. Repeater output was 155.25 Mcs or Mhz, can't remember when that was invented. I recall it was my channel 4, and if in a chase, just switch there, and
every county had it. so if they were gonna get in on the operation the county told its units to switch to Mutual Aid. Before that we were ALL on 39.10 Mcs so no switching nor notification was needed as I could run from Halifax County to Dare county and all LE on 39.10 Mcs.
We had scanners to listen to A Troop and its 3 KW station in Williamston and the Patrolmen had scanners with 39.10 and we could talk cross channel. Could not do that today LOL.

Ah yes - the simpler times -- just switch to the common mutual aid channel/frequency ...

Some trunk systems actually have a talkgroup that connects to conventional mutual aid.... in the one example I recall, you still had to change zones and then toggle to the correct channel/talkgroup once there... many times the dispatcher had to tell the user which zone and channel (or ask someone else who knew off the top of their head)

Are 8 Call 90 and 8 Tac 91-94 not a thing there? Even if there aren't repeaters they can be used simplex.

Yes, 8TACs for 800mhz users -- but in some places, a central authority has to grant use first -- more complexity...

Of course, there are also VTACs, UTACs, 7TACS.....

 

[KE4ZNR]

So much disinformation and just wrong info in this thread....let's do some info fixing, clarification and hopefully some education:

--First off: Wake Sheriff was NOT operating "on VIPER"....Wake Sheriff has always had their operations on the Wake County Simulcast System with a patch of ONLY their Dispatch 1 talkgroup to a talkgroup on VIPER. This is important to understand because both Apex PD and WSO operate on the same Wake County Simulcast System.

As a reminder of why WSO DISP 1 radio traffic is patched on one VIPER P25 Talkgroup and why SHP C3 VIPER P25 talkgroup is patched to one Wake County 4.1 Talkgroup I point you in the direction of of this Wake Gov pdf...I quote:

"To facilitate continued interoperability between Wake County law enforcement users and the
SHP, Information Services staff implemented a permanent “patch” between the SHP’s new P25 VIPER
radio system and the County’s radio system to allow the SHP C3 Dispatch talkgroup radio traffic and the
Sheriff’s Office Dispatch talkgroup radio traffic to be “passed” between systems. This patch allows the
two entities Dispatch talkgroups to continue to be used in Priority Monitor scan lists."

During the pursuit that Brian heard Wake Sheriff was Dispatching and communicating on the Wake County System with a patch of their one DISP 1 talkgroup to the VIPER system.

Now: interoperability is very much alive and well in Wake County. You just need to know "PS EVENT 10" also known as "CHASE 10". This is one of the 10 Public Safety Event "PS EVENT" talkgroups that is loaded into EVERY public safety radio in Wake County.
Let's walk through a pretend vehicle chase to show how EVENT CHASE 10 works:

--Apex PD has a pretend vehicle pursuit that starts in their town. They quickly realize the chase is going to move onto US 1 North and possibly into Raleigh on I-440. Their Apex Dispatcher lets the Raleigh Wake Dispatcher (RWECC) know that the pursuit is going on. The Raleigh Wake Dispatcher then has Raleigh PD units and Wake Sheriff Units switch over to EVENT 10 and RWECC patches EVENT 10 to Apex PD Dispatch. Why this is done is important to know: This allows Apex PD to continue their radio transmissions WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE TALKGROUPS OR ZONES. They stay on their Dispatch TG and just continue to hit the PTT and give updates on location. Safety first and the agencies checking in can now hear and comm with the Apex PD officers involved through the EVENT 10->Apex PD Dispatch patch.
The above Event 10->Agency involved Dispatch talkgroup has been used many, many times over the years that Wake County has been on 800Mhz and it works damn well.

If you always keep EVENT "CHASE" 10 in your scanlist in whichever scanner/radio you are using to monitor Wake PS Comms you will hear any interesting internal Wake County Mutual Aid situation.

Now when a chase leaves Wake County usually it will only be SHP involved at that point. Very rarely do you hear a local Wake agency continue pursuit...they will usually turn it over to SHP at that point.

I don't know why EVENT 10 was not used in the pursuit Brian heard...perhaps the dispatchers were new or they got caught off guard but rest assured the various dispatch centers are aware of the capability of EVENT "CHASE" 10 and it continues to be used to provide interop to the various public safety agencies within Wake County.

Marshall KE4ZNR

 

[KE4ZNR]

Are 8 Call 90 and 8 Tac 91-94 not a thing there? Even if there aren't repeaters they can be used simplex.

Wake (like Durham) has access to repeaters on 8CALL/8TAC but they are rarely used and never used in pursuit situations such as in the thread starting post.

Marshall KE4ZNR

 

[Flyham]

So much disinformation and just wrong info in this thread....let's do some info fixing, clarification and hopefully some education:

--First off: Wake Sheriff was NOT operating "on VIPER"....Wake Sheriff has always had their operations on the Wake County Simulcast System with a patch of ONLY their Dispatch 1 talkgroup to a talkgroup on VIPER. This is important to understand because both Apex PD and WSO operate on the same Wake County Simulcast System.

As a reminder of why WSO DISP 1 radio traffic is patched on one VIPER P25 Talkgroup and why SHP C3 VIPER P25 talkgroup is patched to one Wake County 4.1 Talkgroup I point you in the direction of of this Wake Gov pdf...I quote:



During the pursuit that Brian heard Wake Sheriff was Dispatching and communicating on the Wake County System with a patch of their one DISP 1 talkgroup to the VIPER system.

Now: interoperability is very much alive and well in Wake County. You just need to know "PS EVENT 10" also known as "CHASE 10". This is one of the 10 Public Safety Event "PS EVENT" talkgroups that is loaded into EVERY public safety radio in Wake County.
Let's walk through a pretend vehicle chase to show how EVENT CHASE 10 works:

--Apex PD has a pretend vehicle pursuit that starts in their town. They quickly realize the chase is going to move onto US 1 North and possibly into Raleigh on I-440. Their Apex Dispatcher lets the Raleigh Wake Dispatcher (RWECC) know that the pursuit is going on. The Raleigh Wake Dispatcher then has Raleigh PD units and Wake Sheriff Units switch over to EVENT 10 and RWECC patches EVENT 10 to Apex PD Dispatch. Why this is done is important to know: This allows Apex PD to continue their radio transmissions WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE TALKGROUPS OR ZONES. They stay on their Dispatch TG and just continue to hit the PTT and give updates on location. Safety first and the agencies checking in can now hear and comm with the Apex PD officers involved through the EVENT 10->Apex PD Dispatch patch.
The above Event 10->Agency involved Dispatch talkgroup has been used many, many times over the years that Wake County has been on 800Mhz and it works damn well.

If you always keep EVENT "CHASE" 10 in your scanlist in whichever scanner/radio you are using to monitor Wake PS Comms you will hear any interesting internal Wake County Mutual Aid situation.

Now when a chase leaves Wake County usually it will only be SHP involved at that point. Very rarely do you hear a local Wake agency continue pursuit...they will usually turn it over to SHP at that point.

I don't know why EVENT 10 was not used in the pursuit Brian heard...perhaps the dispatchers were new or they got caught off guard but rest assured the various dispatch centers are aware of the capability of EVENT "CHASE" 10 and it continues to be used to provide interop to the various public safety agencies within Wake County.

Marshall KE4ZNR

Can we please, pin, post, tack, sticky, wiki, or glue this so any time such questions do arise, this can be referenced?????

(( And Marshall, I owe you the biggest, tallest, strongest, best cup of coffee one could ever want for making this post !!! ))

 

[troymail]

The Raleigh Wake Dispatcher then has Raleigh PD units and Wake Sheriff Units switch over to EVENT 10 and RWECC patches EVENT 10 to Apex PD Dispatch. Why this is done is important to know: This allows Apex PD to continue their radio transmissions WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE TALKGROUPS OR ZONES. They stay on their Dispatch TG and just continue to hit the PTT and give updates on location.

This is the way it should work.

 

[jim202]

The bottom line with the use of any Interoperability communications, is that it takes some training to be implemented by the users out in the field. It takes dispatchers to think outside of the small box they usually operate inside of and it takes the support of department managers to make it happen.

Let me point out a few facts of life in public safety communications. First of all, you have probably been provided with a system and the channels or talkgroups that are needed to be able to have this interoperability communications with your surrounding agencies. But, and this is a BIG BUT, how many of you ever received any training on how to use your radio on these interoperability channels or talkgroups? Do you even know where the channels or talkgroups are in your radio? Do you even know how to change your radio to get into a different zone or group to be able to use these interop channels or talkgroups?

When was the last time you had any review of the operation of your radios and what features they contain? My bet is never, but you are on a regular training routine to go out on the firing range for target practice and how to clean and service your weapon. You probably also receive several hours a year on driver training on how to drive and react during a pursuit. Is there any radio training that takes place for you during the year?

Let's talk about your life link to the rest of the world outside your patrol vehicle and your radio. When was the last time they had a refresher class on using anything that has to do with radio interoperability? When was the last time they needed to patch together 2 different radio channels or a talkgroups? Depending on the console make and model, it may take as few as 3 key strokes or as many as up to 6 key strokes. If you don't use it, when the time comes they won't remember how to do it.

All the issues above can be boiled down to the department managers not setting any training time for radio topics and how to do classes. Think back in time and try to remember if you were ever given a simple piece of paper to show you what channel or talkgroups are in your radios and what zones or groups they were located in.

Bottom line here is you probably have the needed tools. You just were not shown how to use them. Interoperability is here. The radio system will allow it to happen. The road block is management and an understanding that it needs their support. To put it in simple blunt terms that anyone can understand, "You can lead a mule to the water, but you can't make him drink if he doesn't want to".

I have traveled all across the country and installed Interop Gateways at the Public Safety Agencies, I can't remember at how many 911 dispatch centers and mobile command vehicles. Classes were provided when the equipment was first installed to the dispatchers and anyone else that wanted to attend. But if you don't train on the use and actually use it frequently, you will forget how it works. This issue of no training is so wide spread, I am surprised it hasn't got someone killed.

The Interoperability technology is here, the hardware is here, it's installed, but it is not being used. I can give classes all day long every week, but I can't fix stupid or stubborn.

 

[BCasto]

Thanks to all for the good info.. Glad I had multiple scanners to hold on the right TGs. I guess I first heard the WSO on this pursuit on the Viper side. Can I assume the switches / hand-offs, etc. are not sensitive to antenna sites?

Yes, many years ago when I was a cop, we did have a statewide common frequency used by all Police agencies. Of course the radio situation was very different, with maybe 5 total analog frequencies used (155 Mhz range). Occasionally we did use a scanner cross-talk approach when necessary.

I have heard of regular multi-agency catastrophic simulation events across Wake / Durham Counties, including state, county, city and RDU resources. Perhaps one element of the simulation is testing of inter-operable communications. As an extreme example, note what happens when the President is in town. Add an encryption element and the level of complication grows even larger.

 

[jthorpe]

As a user of VIPER and the Wake County system, and one who regularly participates in the events listed above, I can tell you that Event 10 is probably one of the most important talkgroups on the simulcast system. That's what allows us all to communicate when the stuff hits the fan. Wake SO will usually patch Dispatch 1 or a Patrol channel to event 10 while the other agencies use event 10 itself. I've used all in the past, and I decide which channel to switch to based on the circumstances. There is one issue that we haven't figured out yet, and that is how to patch SHP C3 to event 10 or a patrol channel when SHP is primary. I will say this. WAKE SO IS VERY VERY GOOD about keeping up with SHP chases and major events. They re-broadcast quickly and we can still switch to each other's systems and TG's. It works very well here.

 

[Flyham]

As a user of VIPER and the Wake County system, and one who regularly participates in the events listed above, I can tell you that Event 10 is probably one of the most important talkgroups on the simulcast system. That's what allows us all to communicate when the stuff hits the fan. Wake SO will usually patch Dispatch 1 or a Patrol channel to event 10 while the other agencies use event 10 itself. I've used all in the past, and I decide which channel to switch to based on the circumstances. There is one issue that we haven't figured out yet, and that is how to patch SHP C3 to event 10 or a patrol channel when SHP is primary. I will say this. WAKE SO IS VERY VERY GOOD about keeping up with SHP chases and major events. They re-broadcast quickly and we can still switch to each other's systems and TG's. It works very well here.

Thorpe,

Is it feasible for “C” to have another consollette with EVENTS 10/Chase 10 in the equipment room, add it as a resource to the consoles and then patch it from the MSEL/Patch box at anyone one of the 3 or 5, “C” consoles?


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[BCasto]

Currently listening to a pursuit in Raleigh involving RPD and Wake SO - using PS Event 10. Thanks for everyone setting this TG up as an important one to monitor.

PS Event 10 seems to be patched in to WSO SHP Patch TG and WSO Dispatch.

 

[KE4ZNR]

Currently listening to a pursuit in Raleigh involving RPD and Wake SO - using PS Event 10. Thanks for everyone setting this TG up as an important one to monitor.

Yep. Also hearing it.

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