HAM License required for P25 ENCRYPTED monitoring?

[silverf0x]

Just throwing this out there: I'm in the central Texas area and all LEOs in my county are using an ENCRYPTED P25 Phase 1 system:

Greater Austin/Travis Regional Radio System (GATRRS) Trunking System, Austin, Texas - Scanner Frequencies
"Williamson County [service name] operates on this system, however ALL communications are encrypted and cannot be monitored."

This means there are no scanners that will let me listen (decode AND decrypt) to police transmissions. I have a friend who is a police officer and he said one of the main reasons is because of the sensitive info that is transmitted (name, DL #, etc.). I'm sure the other reason is so the bad guys don't know the good guys are coming from them.

But I was thinking for those of us with our HAM licenses (we're good guys too!), it could/would make sense if we were legally allowed to own a scanner that would decrypt the P25 signal. This is a big IF Uniden/Whistler/etc. even made scanners to decrypt the signal.

Anyway, I wanted to throw that out there in case it was a popular opinion and would maybe pick up steam and be lobbied to the FCC to make it happen (crossing fingers).

 

[mmckenna]

I understand what you are saying, but as a guy who runs a system that includes encrypted law enforcement channels, HELL NO.

Amateur radio operators don't have any need to have access to encrypted traffic. Amateur radio operators are no different than anyone else, the passing of a multiple choice test doesn't make them "special".

As someone who works on and around these systems, including inside a dispatch center, I've got to have all kinds of background checks, training, security rules/regulations, etc. The fact that I actually have an amateur radio license (General) doesn't mean anything to the people that I work for.

I fully understand that encryption is a issue for hobbyists, but keep in mind that listening to a scanner -is- a hobby. It should not be confused with being an actual public safety professional. I hold encryption keys for our system, and there is no way I'd give them out to anyone, even an amateur radio operator. I don't even give them to our officers. They get loaded in the radios when we program them, and that's it.

FCC isn't going to approve this. You are welcome to try, but I think you'll be disappointed.

And just because someone is an amateur doesn't automatically make them an upstanding citizen; just look up KB7ILD for starters....

 

[Citywide173]

While not a supporter of system-wide encryption, I second the above sentiment.

If something is made that could monitor the encrypted traffic, it will invariably make it's way into the wrong hands. Guns are a prime example-only licensed, upstanding "good guys" have them, right?

 

[N5XTC]

Amateur radio operators don't have any need to have access to encrypted traffic. Amateur radio operators are no different than anyone else, the passing of a multiple choice test doesn't make them "special".

.

I have a shirt that says I am a 1% er, HAM Radio operator. I thought we were special? I am confused now.

 

[ecps92]

It won't happen :roll: ENC is restricted to those who need it, and Amateur Radio and Scannists are not in the NEED it category

Just throwing this out there: I'm in the central Texas area and all LEOs in my county are using an ENCRYPTED P25 Phase 1 system:

Greater Austin/Travis Regional Radio System (GATRRS) Trunking System, Austin, Texas - Scanner Frequencies
"Williamson County [service name] operates on this system, however ALL communications are encrypted and cannot be monitored."

This means there are no scanners that will let me listen (decode AND decrypt) to police transmissions. I have a friend who is a police officer and he said one of the main reasons is because of the sensitive info that is transmitted (name, DL #, etc.). I'm sure the other reason is so the bad guys don't know the good guys are coming from them.

But I was thinking for those of us with our HAM licenses (we're good guys too!), it could/would make sense if we were legally allowed to own a scanner that would decrypt the P25 signal. This is a big IF Uniden/Whistler/etc. even made scanners to decrypt the signal.

Anyway, I wanted to throw that out there in case it was a popular opinion and would maybe pick up steam and be lobbied to the FCC to make it happen (crossing fingers).

 

[paulears]

Crazy stuff - the amateur radio service world wide was primarily kickstarted by the need to experiment, extend friendship, and perhaps even give even a small country a truly international voice. Hams have no need to monitor anything other than the amateur service, and become short wave listeners when they have an interest in other stuff. It has nothing to do with amateur radio. Ludicrous! Why would your FCC wish people to listen to things that clearly, they'd love to make MORE private, but can't. Digital in any form is more difficult and expensive to receive, and needs greater skills to receive. I'm sure they like that!

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Cry all you want it;s not going to happen. Broadcastify and the phone app were probably the biggest cause of enc. Press showing up on the scene before all the units is another.

 

[mitbr]

I am a ham radio operator. We have no special right to listen to encrypted communications.

I believe the reason that allot of PD are going encrypted is because of for profit policing. By going encrypted they lesson their liability.
This once great country is slowly separating its government from its citizenry. This is a dangerous precedent.The question is how to change that but that's another topic hehe.

 

[paulears]

Realistically, if you asked any citizen of any country if given two items of kit which one they'd choose - would they pick the one anyone with a $50 scanner could listen to, or one that took much greater effort, time and cost to do the same thing?

 

[wtp]

i would like to listen in but...

when the cops have a radio stolen it can be remotely bricked...your radio can't.
i am happy enough to listen in the car because of the ham thing.
there has been talk for years here about going P-25 and fulltime encryption.
another thought is the the sheriff or chief could give someone permission to listen.
like a scanner could be set up by the manufacturer to be able to put the keys in.
and have it done at the radio shop the cops use

 

[mikey60]

FWIW, this would literally take an act of Congress to change. It would require the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1934, as amended, to be changed. Even if it were to ever get to the point where the House or Senate were to vote on it, which I doubt would happen, it would be very unlikely to pass due to the lobbying that would be happening.

Mike

 

[JStemann]

when the cops have a radio stolen it can be remotely bricked...your radio can't.
i am happy enough to listen in the car because of the ham thing.
there has been talk for years here about going P-25 and fulltime encryption.
another thought is the the sheriff or chief could give someone permission to listen.
like a scanner could be set up by the manufacturer to be able to put the keys in.
and have it done at the radio shop the cops use

No scanner will exist to support the loading of encryption keys. The cost to develop a scanner that could accept the keys would make the final selling price of the scanner out of reach for pretty much anyone to buy. What the sheriff or police chief could do is provide a specially programmed system radio to a person or group with a legit need to hear the broadcasts. The average person or ham operator isn't going to fall into that category. I'm thinking of legit listeners as being other law enforcement agencies and maybe some news outlets.

Jeff.

 

[AI7PM]

What mmckenna said. Been in the dispatchers chair, been in the comm support roll.

An aside. I've noticed a lot of the hams who want access to secured stuff, are the first to balk at a vetting process. The assumed rights and privileges to systems and agencies because of an amateur license is an interesting phenomenon.

 

[mmckenna]

The assumed rights and privileges to systems and agencies because of an amateur license is an interesting phenomenon.

Just like "emergency lights" on their vehicles and "hacked" radios so they can talk to the police/fire/EMS, "Just in case".

 

[kayn1n32008]

Just like "emergency lights" on their vehicles and "hacked" radios so they can talk to the police/fire/EMS, "Just in case".

Lol...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[n5ims]

So if I understand this correctly, the final outcome would be:

Tech license) - Allow scanners in vehicles and on one's person even if there are laws preventing this.

General license) - Allow the operator to decrypt encrypted communications.

Extra license) - Allow the operator to both receive and transmit on any communications frequency, encrypted or not.

Now that would be incentive licensing! For folks that aren't old enough to remember, incentive licensing was what the ARRL pushed to give hams the incentive to upgrade to Advanced and Extra class licenses. Prior to this, once you were a General, you pretty much had full access to all of the ham frequencies. This rule removed access to portions of the HF bands from the General Class operator and gave them to Advanced and Extra Class operators as a carrot to get them to upgrade.

 

[mmckenna]

So if I understand this correctly, the final outcome would be:

Tech license) - Allow scanners in vehicles and on one's person even if there are laws preventing this.

General license) - Allow the operator to decrypt encrypted communications.

Extra license) - Allow the operator to both receive and transmit on any communications frequency, encrypted or not.

Pretty much, except you left out these parts:

Tech license) - allowed to hang out at donut shops and wear "amateur radio operator" badge.

General license) - allowed to run Code 3 with amber lights

Extra license) - allowed to run Code 3 with red/blue lights and siren



------Added in edit-------
Sorry, this stuff can get out of hand. I'm all for Amateur radio, I've had a ham ticket for a long time now, however I'm having trouble grasping the part of "amateur radio" that gets translated into access to encryption keys, flashing lights, wanna-be badges, etc. Just my opinion.

 

[ecps92]

You both missed the most impotent (Nope, Spell this way for effect) requirements

To be able to Talk to the Dept on their Frequency, because using 9-1-1 is such a drag

Pretty much, except you left out these parts:

Tech license) - allowed to hang out at donut shops and wear "amateur radio operator" badge.

General license) - allowed to run Code 3 with amber lights

Extra license) - allowed to run Code 3 with red/blue lights and siren



------Added in edit-------
Sorry, this stuff can get out of hand. I'm all for Amateur radio, I've had a ham ticket for a long time now, however I'm having trouble grasping the part of "amateur radio" that gets translated into access to encryption keys, flashing lights, wanna-be badges, etc. Just my opinion.

 

[n5ims]

I agree 100% that this stuff can easily get out of hand. While a ham license is something that I cherish, it doesn't give my anything beyond access to the allowed ham frequencies for allowed conversations. Folks that try to push it beyond that are one important part of what can give ham radio operators a bad name.

http://forums.radioreference.com/am...ut-band-transmit-illegal-stupid-question.html

 

[buddrousa]

How many remember having to show the ham license before the ham radio shop would sell you a ham radio. How many remember having to show a letter from the license holder before the friendly Motorola radio saleman would sell you a radio programmed only on the frequency you had a letter for.