Directional antenna for VHF/UHF/800 MHz for Renfrew

[IdleMonitor]

Now I know this should likely go into the antenna section but I wanted to try and keep it localized.

If one were to go with a directional beam that would fair well for UHF/VHF but also have the capability of pulling in 800 mhz signals what would be a good option?

I'm in Renfrew. Just west of Ottawa. Currently I run a discone antenna which works well. But I'm looking for something better.

My VHF/UHF signals are good enough but could be better. I have no problems with fleetnet and getting Kinburn tower. And my UHF systems seem to be pulling in Packenham ok for there respective mototrbo nxdn but I should be able to pull in Camp Fortune. I have before but when the discone was lower and in a different location. Couldn't pull in packenham at the time but camp fortune no problem. I'd like to get that back.

As far as 800 mhz. I'd like to get both the P25 and EDACS system for Ottawa. I should be able to do this from here. Mobile coverage seems decent depending on location. However I just can't seem to pull these in at home on the base.

Any suggestions.

Note...I do already have a 3 element 806-860 mhz beam. But it doesn't do what I'd like it to do.

 

[mmckenna]

Now I know this should likely go into the antenna section but I wanted to try and keep it localized.

If one were to go with a directional beam that would fair well for UHF/VHF but also have the capability of pulling in 800 mhz signals what would be a good option?

OK, I'm not a local (but my family is from that area), but I'll answer anyway:

To get VHF, UHF and 800MHz all in one directional antenna you'd need to look at a log periodic design. They are out there, but not cheap.

My VHF/UHF signals are good enough but could be better. I have no problems with fleetnet and getting Kinburn tower. And my UHF systems seem to be pulling in Packenham ok for there respective mototrbo nxdn but I should be able to pull in Camp Fortune. I have before but when the discone was lower and in a different location. Couldn't pull in packenham at the time but camp fortune no problem. I'd like to get that back.

As far as 800 mhz. I'd like to get both the P25 and EDACS system for Ottawa. I should be able to do this from here. Mobile coverage seems decent depending on location. However I just can't seem to pull these in at home on the base.

Any suggestions.

The log periodic would be an option, but unless everything you want to listen is in one general direction, you'll want to include a rotator so you can point it where you need it.

Discone's have zero gain, which probably isn't helping you. You didn't mention anything about your coaxial cable, type, length, etc. At the higher frequencies cable losses can be an issue. You could look at upgrading your coaxial cable, maybe get your discone a bit higher, maybe add a preamplifier and see if that helps.

A directional antenna will help pull in weak signals, but there has to be something there to work with. Considering the cost of the LP antenna, rotor, etc, you might want to try making some changes to your existing setup first.

 

[iMONITOR]

Now I know this should likely go into the antenna section but I wanted to try and keep it localized.

If one were to go with a directional beam that would fair well for UHF/VHF but also have the capability of pulling in 800 mhz signals what would be a good option?

SpectrumForce Yagi Base, 400-960Mhz 7dBi
https://www.scannermaster.com/SpectrumForce_Yagi_Base_400_960Mhz_7dBi_p/01-541955.htm


Possible inexpensive solution, however I have no experience with the antenna myself.

 

[Frankhappyg]

Would go with a Omni Directional
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/322215841689


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[slicerwizard]

With shipping to Canada thrown in, it looks like it would cost over US$100...

 

[Frankhappyg]

With shipping to Canada thrown in, it looks like it would cost over US$100...

The idea.
Sure you can find similar in your neck of the woods.
I use the Wilson 700/800 Yagi myself with excellent results.
Good luck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[IdleMonitor]

I can't get the antenna up any higher as you can see in the picture provided. That's as high as the scanner antenna will be going. I was thinking of an amplifier as well too first. Just not sure which kind is sufficient for this either.

Yes, going with a beam of some sort would require a rotor. That part I know. I would definitely get one if I got a beam. My main focus is listening in towards Ottawa but I definitely would be interested in knowing what I could hear further out in all other directions.

Coax is RG-8 at roughly about 50 ft. long.

Make no mistake, my current setup works fine for me. But I know I could get more stuff if only I could get in towards Ottawa (East of me) better.

Also the distance I'm trying to reach is approximately 60-80 km's.

OK, I'm not a local (but my family is from that area), but I'll answer anyway:

To get VHF, UHF and 800MHz all in one directional antenna you'd need to look at a log periodic design. They are out there, but not cheap.

The log periodic would be an option, but unless everything you want to listen is in one general direction, you'll want to include a rotator so you can point it where you need it.

Discone's have zero gain, which probably isn't helping you. You didn't mention anything about your coaxial cable, type, length, etc. At the higher frequencies cable losses can be an issue. You could look at upgrading your coaxial cable, maybe get your discone a bit higher, maybe add a preamplifier and see if that helps.

A directional antenna will help pull in weak signals, but there has to be something there to work with. Considering the cost of the LP antenna, rotor, etc, you might want to try making some changes to your existing setup first.

 

[mmckenna]

You are losing about 1/2 your received signal with 50 feet of RG-8.
Switching to a higher grade cable would reduce that to about 1/3. Not a big improvement from something like LMR-400.
So, I wouldn't mess with the coax if it's working for most of your needs. Chasing 2dB or so by swapping out the coax will cost some money and not net a big improvement.

An amplifier might boost weak signals a bit, but it won't pull something out of nothing. You need to get a signal to work with first.

The log periodic would probably be the biggest improvement overall. https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/scanants/1825.html
That would get you 9-10dB of gain, but it comes at quite a cost.

Some have had good luck with taking one of the older style TV antennas and rotating them 90º. Picking up a used one or a low cost new one might do the trick or at least act as a proof of concept. I'd hate to see you spend $300+usd on a log periodic and it not work.
At 800MHz terrain blocking becomes an issue, so you'd really want to confirm that you can hear Ottawa from your location first.

Looks like you have a really good install, so might as well work with that. Maybe try the old TV antenna from either end of the roof and see if one works better than the other. RF can be funny like that.

 

[IdleMonitor]

Ya the coax I have seems to be working ok for me. So I think I can leave that in place, it's everything else that I want to try and work with, whether it's a new antenna or amplifier.

I know the City of Ottawa system can be heard from here, atleast the West side tower. However I can only hear it while I'm mobile in my town. I can literally go about 3 km's in about 3 directions in my mobile and hear that system. But yet can't hear it via the base set up. Frustrating, but I know it can be done. I know I can listen in online, but well...it's just not the same right.

As well...the other systems I'm trying to pull in are both UHF MOTOTRBO and NXDN systems. Again, I know they can be heard from here, it's just a matter of getting a better grasp on the towers for Ottawa. They carry more radio traffic then the towers that I can already get that are closer.

The 800 mhz antenna I do have here, is a PCTEL 3 element Yagi for 806-866 mhz 6db. I've tried it, but it didn't do what I needed it to do. (Mind you it was on a pole lower and in behind the house) Perhaps next summer I could experiment a bit more and attach it to where the discone is now and point it east and hope for the best. If it does work for the 800 mhz then I have to look at a splitter of some sort to feed my UHF/VHF signals and 800 mhz signals from 2 antennas into 1 receive.

It's funny how radio signals work sometimes. I can go almost 10-15 km's further west of here, to a village called Douglas (almost middle of nowhere) to my friends house which is on a bit of a hill in the village, with a perfect wide open view to the east, and I can pull in the Ottawa systems listening on my portable from there back porch with no other external antennas. Yes, that can happen.

I only need 800 mhz range to the east of me, there's no other 800 systems in the area surrounding me in any other direction.

You are losing about 1/2 your received signal with 50 feet of RG-8.
Switching to a higher grade cable would reduce that to about 1/3. Not a big improvement from something like LMR-400.
So, I wouldn't mess with the coax if it's working for most of your needs. Chasing 2dB or so by swapping out the coax will cost some money and not net a big improvement.

An amplifier might boost weak signals a bit, but it won't pull something out of nothing. You need to get a signal to work with first.

The log periodic would probably be the biggest improvement overall. https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/scanants/1825.html
That would get you 9-10dB of gain, but it comes at quite a cost.

Some have had good luck with taking one of the older style TV antennas and rotating them 90º. Picking up a used one or a low cost new one might do the trick or at least act as a proof of concept. I'd hate to see you spend $300+usd on a log periodic and it not work.
At 800MHz terrain blocking becomes an issue, so you'd really want to confirm that you can hear Ottawa from your location first.

Looks like you have a really good install, so might as well work with that. Maybe try the old TV antenna from either end of the roof and see if one works better than the other. RF can be funny like that.

 

[Frankhappyg]

Buy using two antennas with a splitter to one receiver you’re going to get more dB loss in the 800Mhz range.
If it’s you’re hobby I would do it right.
I run Altelix 400 50 feet ($40) for my 700/800Mhz digital use with a Wilson Yagi 301111 ($50).
Have pointed west about 35 feet up and pick up systems 55-60 miles.
I would use at least a 6 element for more gain.

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[IdleMonitor]

Sorry, I just saw this comment now. I must've passed over it. Now this looks like something that is affordable and worth trying considering the price.

Next thing I would need then is a splitter to split off the 2 antennas. Atleast this one covers both UHF and 800. The discone antenna works just fine for me on VHF whether up where it is or behind the house at a lower height.

SpectrumForce Yagi Base, 400-960Mhz 7dBi
https://www.scannermaster.com/SpectrumForce_Yagi_Base_400_960Mhz_7dBi_p/01-541955.htm


Possible inexpensive solution, however I have no experience with the antenna myself.

 

[IdleMonitor]

On the other hand. :lol: I have one of these setups as well. Both the antenna and the ground plane. I actually have a spare antenna part kickin' around in my pile of radio junk.

https://www.scannermaster.com/Ground_Plane_Scanner_Antenna_Kit_p/01-541990.htm

The Comtelco antenna part itself is actually pretty decent. I use one of them on a NMO Magnet mount on my mobile. Works fine in that regard and yes, pulls in Ottawa with little issue, while on the fringe of the town limits where I'm at. It's a great low profile mobile antenna.

I did try this out earlier this year behind my house on a pole attached to the clothes line post. One of my longer VHF/UHF antennas worked better as well as the discone, but who knows with height right.

Even though now, while up at the highest point of the house, I'm using the discone up higher, yet worked better while I had that attached to the clothes line pole at a lower level behind the house for the most part. Sigh...antenna dilemmas eh.

I know, I'm reaching out for those elusive signals to fetch. I know it can be done.

I am one of those people that have maintained trying different antennas over the course of me taking up this as a hobby.

Those elusive Antennacraft Scantenna ST-2's look promising, and I have heard there results before and it is impressive. They're just hard to find and if ya do they're top dollar.

I'm just trying to utilize that spot at the edge of the roof for the best performance I can achieve for my scanner listening.

 

[mmckenna]

On the other hand. :lol: I have one of these setups as well. Both the antenna and the ground plane. I actually have a spare antenna part kickin' around in my pile of radio junk.

https://www.scannermaster.com/Ground_Plane_Scanner_Antenna_Kit_p/01-541990.htm

Mounting that antenna and the ground plane in place of your discone should give you a bit more gain on UHF and more gain on 800. It'll probably perform the same as the discone on VHF.

I did try this out earlier this year behind my house on a pole attached to the clothes line post. One of my longer VHF/UHF antennas worked better as well as the discone, but who knows with height right.

Yeah, height is key. Testing behind your house at a lower level is probably not going to work well. Getting it up higher is important. These frequencies, especially the higher ones, really are line of sight.

I am one of those people that have maintained trying different antennas over the course of me taking up this as a hobby.

Yeah, experimenting is important. Trying different antennas until you find the one that works for you is a good approach if you don't mind spending the money.

Those elusive Antennacraft Scantenna ST-2's look promising, and I have heard there results before and it is impressive. They're just hard to find and if ya do they're top dollar.

I'm just trying to utilize that spot at the edge of the roof for the best performance I can achieve for my scanner listening.

If budget isn't an issue, the log periodic will likely outperform anything. The gain and the directivity of it can have a number of benefits. One issue you can get is too strong a signal from nearby sources. Nearby cellular towers can over power the receiver in your scanner. Using a directional antenna to just focus in on what you want to hear can help.

I'd still say try a TV antenna as a test and see how it works.

 

[DaveH]

Ya the coax I have seems to be working ok for me. So I think I can leave that in place, it's everything else that I want to try and work with, whether it's a new antenna or amplifier.

I know the City of Ottawa system can be heard from here, atleast the West side tower. However I can only hear it while I'm mobile in my town. I can literally go about 3 km's in about 3 directions in my mobile and hear that system. But yet can't hear it via the base set up. Frustrating, but I know it can be done. I know I can listen in online, but well...it's just not the same right.

As well...the other systems I'm trying to pull in are both UHF MOTOTRBO and NXDN systems. Again, I know they can be heard from here, it's just a matter of getting a better grasp on the towers for Ottawa. They carry more radio traffic then the towers that I can already get that are closer.

The 800 mhz antenna I do have here, is a PCTEL 3 element Yagi for 806-866 mhz 6db. I've tried it, but it didn't do what I needed it to do. (Mind you it was on a pole lower and in behind the house) Perhaps next summer I could experiment a bit more and attach it to where the discone is now and point it east and hope for the best. If it does work for the 800 mhz then I have to look at a splitter of some sort to feed my UHF/VHF signals and 800 mhz signals from 2 antennas into 1 receive.

It's funny how radio signals work sometimes. I can go almost 10-15 km's further west of here, to a village called Douglas (almost middle of nowhere) to my friends house which is on a bit of a hill in the village, with a perfect wide open view to the east, and I can pull in the Ottawa systems listening on my portable from there back porch with no other external antennas. Yes, that can happen.

I only need 800 mhz range to the east of me, there's no other 800 systems in the area surrounding me in any other direction.

The little Scannermaster yagi looks interesting, might be worth a try. However, 7dBi is not that
much, could get that from some sort of omni 800MHz vertical, no need to point it. Anything less
e.g. 3 elements isn't doing much.

You might try a good TV antenna, while not optimized could work OK, and you could find one cheap.
If you use it for multiband, your coverage away from pointed direction will be compromised on all
bands. Is separate antenna an option? (but you'd need to run another coax; or use a combiner, more cost
and some loss).

EDACS system is long on the tooth, would not count on it being active with OPS for too much longer.
Are you trying to get to P25 Site 2 (due to it carrying more traffic than Site 1)?

Dave

 

[krokus]

Have you tried connecting directly to the antenna, while on the roof, with a short lead? This would help, by letting you know if you have enough signal to amplify. (I know this is the wrong time of year to try that, for those in the snow belt.)

Add my vote to the TV antenna group, for affordable options, for broadband coverage.

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[mmisk]

Here is a picture of my "cheapskate" antenna.

It is nothing more then the uhf section removed from an old tv antenna.

It is installed with vertical polarization, and the coax is LMR 400 because of the long run.

Works great.

 

[DaveH]

I agree with earlier comment; if at all possible get up on the roof with some sort of
reasonable antenna and start pointing. If you can't get any activity, it's possible you're
just in a bad spot (hopefully not). If worried about dropping expensive scanner, find a cheap
800MHz RX instead (old scanner, does not need to be trunking) with SS meter. With a bit of
practice I can recognize sound of a P25 CC and roughly how strong it is, without a meter.

Since the CCs change you can ask here where they are at the time, if you can't find them.

Make sure antenna is oriented vertically.

Dave

 

[DaveH]

I picked up one of these a while ago marked down to $5 as it was missing some hardware. It's not mounted anywhere but has been useful at times to localize direction of a signals (hand held). Construction is fairly light, probably would not hold up for too many winters outside. May be worth a try, for under $25.

https://www.factorydirect.ca/kross-gy960n-diy-outdoor-hdtv-antenna

Dave

 

[VA3JPX]

https://www.factorydirect.ca/kross-gy960n-diy-outdoor-hdtv-antenna

Hey Dave, what are the dimensions of this antenna and does it have an F connector on it?

Thanks

 

[slicerwizard]

Assembled dimensions are 75 cm high, 53 cm wide, 36 cm deep. Has a female F connector. Looks like it's a poor performer below 185 MHz as well as between 235 and 460 MHz. Not surprising since those aren't in the VHF/UHF TV bands.