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-   -   Encryption editorial (https://forums.radioreference.com/pennsylvania-radio-discussion-forum/356120-encryption-editorial.html)

newsnick175 07-19-2017 5:52 PM

All that needs to be said is even with the recent shooting of an on duty officer in NYC, NYPD isn't making any moves to routine encryption. No way will encryption prevent the LODD of police officers. What encryption will do is further isolate police departments from the people they are charged to "serve and protect".

scnrfrq 07-20-2017 6:48 AM

Our lifeguards in Erie are also not able to be monitored, as they are on Opensky, along with the DCNR rangers. When I could hear the lifeguards in the old days, it was very informative and also helped a lot when missing person alerts were made for people in the water. I was able to inform other people on the beach who they were looking for and the descriptions.

lbijay 07-20-2017 11:26 AM

As another alternative, why can't the police departments offer decription to be programmed by the department only IF and AFTER the scanner owner has been registered by that department? Then they would know who is listening and true hobbyists and media organizations could get the openness that they wish to have. All of the bad guys would be listening to blank air or scrambled voices.

Golay 07-20-2017 4:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommJunkie (Post 2792052)
I had to check to make sure I was still in the PA forum, as I don't think a single comment in this thread is from anyone local.

Sorry 'bout that. This thread originated in a nationwide forum, and a moderator moved it here. It's definitely a nationwide topic, imo.

mmckenna 07-21-2017 1:21 AM

duplicate post….

mmckenna 07-21-2017 1:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbijay (Post 2792980)
As another alternative, why can't the police departments offer decription to be programmed by the department only IF and AFTER the scanner owner has been registered by that department? Then they would know who is listening and true hobbyists and media organizations could get the openness that they wish to have. All of the bad guys would be listening to blank air or scrambled voices.

There's a lot more to it than just being registered.
I have to work on equipment in a 911 dispatch center frequently. While I've known most of them for 20 years now, I still have to go through State DOJ and FBI background checks on a regular basis. That just so I can be in the room and overhear stuff/see stuff that the public isn't privy to.

So, no, simply registering isn't enough.

Also, how would the PD control who was listening to your scanner, your buddies, friend, family, etc.

Then, what happens if you lose your scanner, it gets stolen, you loan it to a friend?

What happens when the PD needs to rekey their system? Try and track down all the people they registered so they can give you the new key? What's to keep that from being given to someone who isn't registered?

Then, there's the whole "such a beast doesn't exist yet" thing. Media usually gets/buys/rents/borrows agency transceivers that have had transmit capability disabled.
At least with a transceiver if it goes missing they can kill/stun the radio. Not so with a scanner.

I understand the desire to hear whats going on, but this isn't the way. If you are strongly against encryption, talk to your PD, city council, mayor, put a measure on the ballot, etc. Get primary dispatch channels to run in the clear, or have the agency set up a delayed feed.

allend 07-21-2017 1:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whsbuss (Post 2792455)
Soon our hobby will be dead for public safety

Oh yeah you have it exactly right. We see the writing all over the wall. LE has been encrypting for years now and the departments that have been in the clear are slowly catching up to encrypting their comms now too. With the newer TRS systems even Fire and EMS are jumping on board slowly too with a 100 percent encryption. It's happening and there is nothing nobody can do about it anymore with DHS involved now.

Like it or not Southern California and Florida are heavily encrypting their comms with new P25 systems with a 100 percent end to end encryption. It's just a matter of time until all public safety is locked down like all computer system and corporate networks with huge padlocks on the system.

You just need to figure out on how to get a commercial grade radio onto the system and figure out how to OTAR your radio and hijack the key. If not, join the radio tech world or a department and then you will have the key to the kingdom.

newsnick175 07-21-2017 8:13 AM

You all don't seam to get it! Encryption was invented by the business world to make money! They use fear and loathing to sell it to LE. It is an "Urban Myth" that bad actors are tuned in and getting away with crime. Show one instance where any LE agency claims such a thing! If there is such an agency with that problem, they are incompetent! Encryption does not save lives, it only makes the radio manufacturers more wealthy.
Sorry for the rant, but it's just another case of the loss of personal liberty that is slipping through our hands.

crazyboy 07-21-2017 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allend (Post 2793300)
You just need to figure out on how to get a commercial grade radio onto the system and figure out how to OTAR your radio and hijack the key..


Yeaaa, thats not going to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsnick175 (Post 2793372)
You all don't seam to get it! Encryption was invented by the business world to make money! They use fear and loathing to sell it to LE. It is an "Urban Myth" that bad actors are tuned in and getting away with crime. Show one instance where any LE agency claims such a thing! If there is such an agency with that problem, they are incompetent! Encryption does not save lives, it only makes the radio manufacturers more wealthy.
Sorry for the rant, but it's just another case of the loss of personal liberty that is slipping through our hands.


They need to work on their sales game then and stop giving it away, since some form is included in virtually every radio.




Rant: Everyone here I'm sure wants to use encryption and https for all their internet usage especially anything that contains personal information because some cyber dork in their parents basement, or the Russians, could get their information and use it for illegitimate purposes. Yet they are 100% against encrypting police channels where someone could easily get all information required to steal you identity without having to put forth any effort other than downloading an app on their phone to listen.

Oh and then there is the social media "news". A much more significant driving factor. Instantaneous posting of who said what to these so called news pages, not even just incidents literally word by word, and posting where specialized teams are performing undercover work. The most damaging is that then they are adding personal views and commentary to postings. Who wants to call 911, to see it on a Facebook post right away especially with commentary about how their family must be proud, they're so dumb, the caller should go eat ****, shall I go on....

So don't blame the salesman, the departments or anyone but your own fellow human beings who can't keep their mouths shut, and the advent of social media.

/rant

AES256 for all!

kayn1n32008 07-21-2017 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allend (Post 2793300)
.
You just need to figure out on how to get a commercial grade radio onto the system and figure out how to OTAR your radio and hijack the key. If not, join the radio tech world or a department and then you will have the key to the kingdom.

You need a valid encryption key to be able to OTAR the radio, not to mention the pesky little legal issue of illegally accessing a government radio network.

Face it. Getting around the encryption just is not going to happen.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

kayn1n32008 07-21-2017 12:38 PM

Encryption editorial
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by newsnick175 (Post 2793372)
You all don't seam to get it! Encryption was invented by the business world to make money!

Uh not even close. Encryption was invented by the military to prevent the enemy from gaining SIGINT during war times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsnick175 (Post 2793372)
They use fear and loathing to sell it to LE. It is an "Urban Myth" that bad actors are tuned in and getting away with crime.

But bad actors, actual bad actors like Biker gangs, and native gangs and organized crime groups ARE using scanners to gain SIGINT about law enforcement. Native gangs in Winnipeg Manitoba were using scanners to gain intelligence against WPS, until WPS went full time encryption many years ago. In Alberta there have been multiple drug busts recently(in the last year) where scanners have been seized along with drugs, drug money, and guns. One of those busts was a world famous biker gang.

One bust seized a Uniden scanner capable of decoding unencrypted provoice(local city police are currently on a dual mode EDACS system). Bikers and other organized drug gangs are smart and tech savvy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsnick175 (Post 2793372)
Show one instance where any LE agency claims such a thing!

Seizing scanners shows that there is people actively using their radio comms to gain an advantage. Even if those agencies do utilize encryption for 'sensitive operations' like ERT, Gang Enforcement and other specialized covert units.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsnick175 (Post 2793372)
If there is such an agency with that problem, they are incompetent!

And that 'problem' is solved with AES-256.

Another problem solved with AES-256, here in Alberta, is a paramedic Whacker in Calgary was 'responding' to non-emergency medical calls he was listening to. AES-256 fixed that problem too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsnick175 (Post 2793372)
Encryption does not save lives, it only makes the radio manufacturers more wealthy.

Care to cite a source to back that statement up?

According to com501, Motorola is now including AES-256 encryption with their APX radios. With many(Motorola, Harris, Tait, Kenwood) now including ARC4 40bit(ADP in Motorola speak) for free or almost free, you can not make that bogus claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newsnick175 (Post 2793372)
YSorry for the rant, but it's just another case of the loss of personal liberty that is slipping through our hands.


*Extra large eye roll*

Do you use HTTPS, a VPN or AES encryption when online?

If so, you kinda are a hypocrite. Why can you use encryption, and law enforcement can not?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

kayn1n32008 07-21-2017 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyboy (Post 2793479)
Yeaaa, thats not going to work.
Rant: Everyone here I'm sure wants to use encryption and https for all their internet usage especially anything that contains personal information because some cyber dork in their parents basement, or the Russians, could get their information and use it for illegitimate purposes. Yet they are 100% against encrypting police channels where someone could easily get all information required to steal you identity without having to put forth any effort other than downloading an app on their phone to listen.

Oh and then there is the social media "news". A much more significant driving factor. Instantaneous posting of who said what to these so called news pages, not even just incidents literally word by word, and posting where specialized teams are performing undercover work. The most damaging is that then they are adding personal views and commentary to postings. Who wants to call 911, to see it on a Facebook post right away especially with commentary about how their family must be proud, they're so dumb, the caller should go eat ****, shall I go on....

So don't blame the salesman, the departments or anyone but your own fellow human beings who can't keep their mouths shut, and the advent of social media.

/rant

Exactly. Hit the nail on the head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyboy (Post 2793479)
AES256 for all!


Strapped full time, on every talkgroup/frequency.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ElroyJetson 07-21-2017 12:48 PM

No Cookies | The Mercury


Here, read the article above^^^^^^^^^^^


Most likely the "scanners" described in this article are public safety radios bootlegged by an insider, probably for a large sum of money.

I remember reading something about a vaguely similar case (maybe the same one) a couple of years ago.

allend 07-21-2017 3:54 PM

Everybody needs to understand and as time passes and people evolve and technology grows our rights as human beings or citizens of the USA or other countries has been slipping for years now. More and more of the things we want in life are slowly being taken away.

Its the nasty world we live in. Trust me the world is not becoming a better place to live.

What we use to be-able to listen to freely 20 to 30 years ago has slowly eroded away. It will continue to erode away as time passes us by. I say within 5 to 10 years there will be nothing really interesting to listen to anymore. LE departments have been closing the gap with their comms. DHS is involved with grant money being giving and guidelines are made when building out these systems.

Fire Departments are slowly starting the push for Encryption the past couple of years. So you just live for the day and enjoy what you have for the moment. Then once all of LE and Fire have buttoned up their system then it will trickle into the business band to where it has already started with MOTOTRBO stuff.

Encryption will only be re-evaluated when it bottle necks up somewhere in a period of history, and we just don't know the time frame of the future. But I sure can tell everybody that it will bottle neck up at some point. Maybe not in our lifetime.

GOD did or whoever you believe in created us with a mouth and vocal cords to be-able to communicate on earth. He never intended for encryption to be the middle man.

KK4JUG 07-21-2017 4:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allend (Post 2793581)
GOD did or whoever you believe in created us with a mouth and vocal cords to be-able to communicate on earth. He never intended for encryption to be the middle man.

You're kidding, aren't you?

phillmobile 07-21-2017 6:44 PM

Don't worry won't be long before some kid with a raspberry pi has the whole encryption thing blown open

allend 07-21-2017 6:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KK4JUG (Post 2793586)
You're kidding, aren't you?

Oh NO I am not kidding.

kayn1n32008 07-21-2017 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allend (Post 2793581)
Then once all of LE and Fire have buttoned up their system then it will trickle into the business band to where it has already started with MOTOTRBO stuff.

Many businesses are using encryption. Businesses don't want outsiders to listen to their comms. As is their right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allend (Post 2793581)
Encryption will only be re-evaluated when it bottle necks up somewhere in a period of history, and we just don't know the time frame of the future. But I sure can tell everybody that it will bottle neck up at some point. Maybe not in our lifetime.

Bottle neck how exactly? Data privacy is a big deal, and this extending to include voice privacy as well. Encryption is not going away.

Digital voice modes make encryption a snap. It is literally all data, and encrypting data now a days is really easy, and has none of the degradation that analogue encryption had.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

radio3353 07-21-2017 8:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allend (Post 2793581)
...Trust me...

GOD did or whoever you believe in created us with a mouth and vocal cords to be-able to communicate on earth. He never intended for encryption to be the middle man.

And you know this how? :roll:

Sorry anonymous Internet poster, I don't trust you. The intelligence God gave me prohibits that.

KK4JUG 07-21-2017 8:19 PM

It's in First Telecommunications, Chapter 6, Verse 4: Thou shalt not encrypt.


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