And Yaesu could easily have done it with D-STAR; three modulation methods are defined for the protocol, it provides for analog users to be able to fully access the digital network and some hams actually did implement dual-mode D-STAR repeaters.
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Never say "never".
I know of one D-Star repeater that is going to be taken off the air and sold just as soon as the System Fusion repeater that was ordered to replace it arrives.
Yaesu's U.S. Amateur Radio Product Manager announced over the weekend that they are opening up the application process to individuals, not just clubs. As long as you can prove you have an existing repeater coordination and that coordination clearly describes the location of the repeater site, you can apply for a $500 System Fusion repeater until the end of March.
The demand for the DR1-X repeater has been so high that Yaesu has had to increase production to meet the demand.
N4KVE
Member
Hey W9BU. One thing I learned last night at the Fusion meeting was that the repeater heat sinks were not properly made. It was possible to see milling marks on the heat sink surface that would contact the finals, & not make 100% contact. The finals would die. So I'm told when the repeaters arrive in CA, the heat sinks are removed, sent to a machine shop, & properly cut to be mirror smooth. Then reassembled on the repeater & no more overheating problems. Maybe Japan has fixed the problem on their end, but this is what was happening in the past. The St. Lucie group also had to install much bigger fans on the top of the repeater to keep the heat away, but I'm told that problem has been fixed.
Denverpilot is right, any repeater (doesn't matter what brand) that uses two mobiles in a rack mount box will never last long at it's advertised "continuous duty rating". If it says it will do 50 watts continuous, you might as well figure on 25 watts and be sure the fan is working.
I am a Motorola fan, and even the XPR series 40 watt repeaters won't handle 40 watts all day like they claim. I run mine at 20 watts and have been fine. At least Motorola did modify the TX radio with a larger heatsink, even then I don't push it. The Kenwood repeaters I have played with were the same way, they run way too hot. The Icom D-Star repeaters are not cheap and I have concerns over their duty cycle.
The new Yaesu Fusion repeater that they are giving away for $500 is just a modified mobile radio with a fan blowing by it. I don't have much faith in that at it's 100% power rating lasting for long winded QSO's.
A good rule of thumb I play by and has always worked for me.....if you putting up a ham repeater, run it at 50% power. If you need more power, then use the "two mobiles in a box" repeater as a exciter and use an external amp. Your car's tachometer says the engine will do 6000 RPM....do you run your engine at 100% all the time ? I hope not. Play it safe and run it at half power and save yourself some cash in transmitter PA failures.
And if my group is called out to support a group that expects us to know how to use the system they do, and we don't, how much help are we going to be? This is why a single unified standard for the entire country is needed; the patchwork of interconnecting systems that is currently in use makes us look unprofessional, in my opinion. I'm not specifically talking about using one digital voice system over another, when analog voice will do for what little voice is needed; an increasing number of operations are using digital in place of voice and finding it more effective for their needs.
Yaesu is saying that the DR-1X should not be run at full power for an extended period of time. Apparently there have been some PA failures and Yaesu is evaluating the warranty claims on those failures on a case-by-case basis. In other words, if they think you've abused the repeater, they may not cover all the repair cost under warranty. Now, before a bunch of guys get all wrapped around the axle about this, Yaesu's policy is no different than anyone else's. The only trouble spot is Yaesu's definition of abuse. Running 50 watts into a questionable load for hours at a time might cross their line.
And, as others have noted, the Icom D-Star repeaters are nothing more than two mobile radios with a controller and a fan. Same for the Motorola MotoTRBO repeaters. Same for the Kenwood NXDN repeaters. It's the way that business class (not public safety class) repeaters are built these days.
First I agree with being a conservative coward when it comes to TX duty cycle. Running a radio as a low powered exciter and a PA at half throttle will always work out better in the long run and give you 100% time in TX without letting the magic smoke out. Too many fans are barely enough.
Second, folks forget that stupid old-fashioned analog is still a viable and common standard. A repeater can have virtually unlimited output horsepower and cover its operating area just fine in analog, while the mobile uplink is always the weak part. How many times have you had the repeater output peg the RSSI, but only heard noise because the mobile was barely able to get in?
Having a repeater that accepts analog or digital (or multiple digital formats) means that anyone who can bring up the repeater with whatever they have gets instant interoperability with everyone else. Use whatever works best for the mobile and listen to the repeater analog.
Second, folks forget that stupid old-fashioned analog is still a viable and common standard. A repeater can have virtually unlimited output horsepower and cover its operating area just fine in analog, while the mobile uplink is always the weak part. How many times have you had the repeater output peg the RSSI, but only heard noise because the mobile was barely able to get in?
Having a repeater that accepts analog or digital (or multiple digital formats) means that anyone who can bring up the repeater with whatever they have gets instant interoperability with everyone else. Use whatever works best for the mobile and listen to the repeater analog.
I have a club Yaesu 400 for evaluation and while the radio itself is very nice I am not very impressed with C4FM. First the audio quality stinks compared to FM even in wide mode and even worse weak signals go off into all kinds of weird unlock noises that drive both me and my dog crazy. It is like running chalk down a chalkboard - anyone remember that??
I was under the assumption that digital in general had a brick wall fall off. Either it could intelligently decode or not decode at all. Perhaps I was wrong in this assumption but if the way I am observing Fusion is working is normal then I really don't want to have any part of it. The first time I heard the crazy noises the radio would be shut off!
The radio should be able to make an assumption if data is intelligible or not and mute or possibly send low level white noise when it is not.
My question is - do all digital modes - DSTAR, DMR, etc do this? I am told DMR is much better. I doubt a public service organization would put up with such crappy noise.
I remember when DTV first came online. The sound was horrendous. All kinds of spikes and audio discontinuities. I can remember complaining to my local affiliate about it. 10 years later this is non existent. So I suspect in time there will be improvement in digital communications equipment also but for me right now Fusion is out. Looking at DMR and probably Hytera. It nothing else TDMA gives two audio streams which is nice.
I was under the assumption that digital in general had a brick wall fall off. Either it could intelligently decode or not decode at all. Perhaps I was wrong in this assumption but if the way I am observing Fusion is working is normal then I really don't want to have any part of it. The first time I heard the crazy noises the radio would be shut off!
The radio should be able to make an assumption if data is intelligible or not and mute or possibly send low level white noise when it is not.
My question is - do all digital modes - DSTAR, DMR, etc do this? I am told DMR is much better. I doubt a public service organization would put up with such crappy noise.
I remember when DTV first came online. The sound was horrendous. All kinds of spikes and audio discontinuities. I can remember complaining to my local affiliate about it. 10 years later this is non existent. So I suspect in time there will be improvement in digital communications equipment also but for me right now Fusion is out. Looking at DMR and probably Hytera. It nothing else TDMA gives two audio streams which is nice.
Yes and no. There is a little bit of error correction, to allow for minor signal fluctuations. Once you exceed that level, the audio basically vanishes.
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DSTAR degrades to random beeps and boops when the signal is too low to decode, leading to the expression 'Can you repeat, you were R2D2ing' ... which I think is rather amusing everytime someone says that, but it seems to be the common term for it
Khooke is right, there are all kinds of odd noises to be heard when the signal on D-Star wavers, or fades. That is because D-Star is not using the newest error correction like DMR is using. I wonder if Icom will ever push to get it upgraded so we could enjoy better audio on D-Star.
N4KVE
Member
This was one of my points. While Icom D-Star radios have no way to upgrade the FW to incorporate all the improvements made over the last 5 years, the Motorola DMR radios are constantly being issued new FW upgrades to keep up with technology, & improve the product.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ
Agreed, if Yaesu is now rating their Fusion repeater at 20w 100% then it makes sense to drop that repeater to 5w and drive an amp at 30-40w(unless going Into a community antenna where you are seeing 3+DB of loss)
I keep seeing this... With ALL the analogue machines that never get used, there ARE lots of options for analogue
Very true, especially when folks throw 100w(erp in the 200w+ range)
yea! but folks seem to think that throwing a 100w PA on a repeater at full power is a good thing to do....
Where I live? Not very often, but that is because we build balanced repeaters.
For an example of one take a look at this:
http://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=CA01&ID=205
Click on the coverage map. This is the VE6AAP repeater. To the best of my recollection, is outputting a bit over 10w into 1/2" hardline, all 150' of it. The antenna is a Sinclair 310-C8 With the 6.4w reaching the antenna, this repeater has a calculated ERP of 80.4w
With that repeater, if you can hear it you can work it... Right down to S-0. It is because of repeaters like this I have a hard time understanding why folks feel the need for a 100w(or more) PA if it is not being multi coupled to a community antenna
There is that pesky word 'interoperability' This is ham radio not Public Safety.
Seriously, with all those unused analogue machines, I see zero point in mixed mode repeaters...
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kayn1n32008
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I have found D-Star will go 'R2D2' with the slightest drop in signal strength, and not come back. DMR though will come back and properly decode. One of the major differences between them, that and the lack of 'late entry' on D-Star is aggravating to say the least.
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D-star is not difficult to understand, and if someone can't program their radio for proper D-Star navigation and control, there are tons of Hams that will offer to help for free. Now get DMR, and you will only find help for programming in these forums,and in yahoo forums, the folks on many of the repeaters don't want to be bothered. Now don't flame me just because you are an odd man out and offer to help any ham trying to delve into DMR.
The thing to notice about D-Star, is not only all that we say is wrong with it, but all that we say is right with it, and all the hams that are coming into it in spite of all the negativity spewed from the mouths of DMR users, and some disgruntled D-Star users. Nobody said that Amateur Radio was easy, we most do say that it is fun. Easy is a relative thing, and your own personal mileage may vary.
The thing to notice about D-Star, is not only all that we say is wrong with it, but all that we say is right with it, and all the hams that are coming into it in spite of all the negativity spewed from the mouths of DMR users, and some disgruntled D-Star users. Nobody said that Amateur Radio was easy, we most do say that it is fun. Easy is a relative thing, and your own personal mileage may vary.
N4KVE
Member
Boy, that's the pot calling the kettle black. When you needed help with your DMR radio, you came on RR asking for help. I put you in touch with a guy who sent you a codeplug. Your radio was programmed the next day. What you didn't like about DMR was the fact that you had to ask permission from the repeater owner to use his system. Nobody has ever been refused, & the guy who spent his $ on a 7 repeater Florida system just wants to know who will be using his equipment. The new user on our system buys a radio, calls the system owner, gets approved, & he then emails you a codeplug for Motorola, Hytera, or CS700. What could be easier than that?
I think it is often hard to get good opinions form those who own a particular digital format because we often tend to defend anything we spend a great deal of money for like DSTAR. But a lot of the DSTAR equipment was purchased through homeland security tax money and sits idle. I know it does in many areas around here. It is old technology and at least in its current state not going anywhere.
My real comparison at the moment is between Fusion and DMR. Fusion is basically being given away at least in the form of repeaters. I guess you also can't complain as much when something is given to you!
My experience as a user with Fusion is it was a nice effort but the weak signal RX noise (for lack of a better term) is unacceptable. It is nothing like FM weak signal where the brain can actually put together some intelligence through the picket fencing. We all know from CW work that the brain is an excellent filter but it cannot put together random crazy sounds into anything intelligible.
My original question was more of a comparison between Fusion and DMR (not DSTAR) regarding this problem. Does anyone have any input on that? Does DMR handle weak signal better and not put out ear grating random noise?
My real comparison at the moment is between Fusion and DMR. Fusion is basically being given away at least in the form of repeaters. I guess you also can't complain as much when something is given to you!
My experience as a user with Fusion is it was a nice effort but the weak signal RX noise (for lack of a better term) is unacceptable. It is nothing like FM weak signal where the brain can actually put together some intelligence through the picket fencing. We all know from CW work that the brain is an excellent filter but it cannot put together random crazy sounds into anything intelligible.
My original question was more of a comparison between Fusion and DMR (not DSTAR) regarding this problem. Does anyone have any input on that? Does DMR handle weak signal better and not put out ear grating random noise?
Didn't I say that I got my help in the forum, and via yahoo groups, and the internet, not via the DMR radio and the hams I was trying to speak to. The friendliest person, besides Hector was another new to DMR Ham, and he was doing what I was doing, trying to figure it out. I was way ahead of him, and gave him some help. We both had D-Star experience.
Hector may be the friendliest ham in existence, regardless of what modes he likes to operate. Those modes are actually CW, and he works in radio, so he has DMR too. I got help from hector via his QRZ page, and then through contact via email.
That is a nice comparison from the Ham clubs that installed my local D-Star and Fusion repeaters, and the individuals who pay for and install DMR systems. That's not where the differences start, or stop but it is a good one.
One of the local DMR systems is put up by a friend who said that he preferred D-Star, and only put up DMR because he had it, and did it for fun.
Hector may be the friendliest ham in existence, regardless of what modes he likes to operate. Those modes are actually CW, and he works in radio, so he has DMR too. I got help from hector via his QRZ page, and then through contact via email.
That is a nice comparison from the Ham clubs that installed my local D-Star and Fusion repeaters, and the individuals who pay for and install DMR systems. That's not where the differences start, or stop but it is a good one.
One of the local DMR systems is put up by a friend who said that he preferred D-Star, and only put up DMR because he had it, and did it for fun.
kayn1n32008
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Sure. Try and program on the fly...
Agreed. When I started in D-Star I had lots of help from folks that knew more than I, it was nice for that help.
Interesting. I had nothing but LOTS of help from all places BUT these forums or Yahoo Groups. I actually got sick and tired of the dick swinging people on the Yahoo group.
I will gladly get on the repeater and help newbies out.
Well there much more than the 'odd man out' that will gladly help newbies.
Agreed. It was the first digital voice mode I used on ha, bands.
What new users? Can you support that statement? I have asked you to support your OPINION with some FACTS in this thread before, but you have failed to do so... I doubt this will change but I still need to ask.
Now I see why you did not get any help on air... I also see you did not take time to learn about DMR either, or how layering of talk groups work.
I still have my D-Star radio, and I still use it... I just prefer the simplicity of DMR and the audio quality over D-Star...
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