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Discussion: FCC Advisory on Two-Way VHF/UHF Radios

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alcahuete

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They're not certified for FRS.

Who cares? Would you rather have the non-certified radios on FRS or would you rather have them on the police dispatch frequencies? Yes, you would rather not have them at all...I get that, but they aren't going away. I promise you the CCRs are here to stay, whether they are marketed as amateur radios, scanners, or just get the Part 90 type acceptance.

I hear ham radio operators using their non-certified radios on FRS every day of the week, I talk to people using Motorola radios on FRS...again, not type accepted for Part 95. People run 50+ watts on the 2 watt channels. Nobody cares.

There are 12 pages of people complaining about how some of these radios are programmed by default to public service frequencies. Well...fix it! Move them to a service where it isn't going to make the slightest difference and nobody cares. FRS is perfect for that. The FCC abandoned that band years ago.
 

alcahuete

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If everyone took that same attitude with your ham radio and let any- and everybody get on the air with a radio from Walmart, would you feel the same way?

Honestly? Sure! The more the merrier. No need to make it some exclusive club. I think the tests are stupid and outdated, quite frankly. I've been saying it for years. If they were to open the bands up to everybody, I would have absolutely no issue with that. Of course, the old crusty hams would probably have a heart attack over something like that.

FRS is already license by rule anyway. Anybody with a radio from Walmart CAN get on the air. Would you rather have the CCRs on the FRS band or on the public safety bands? They aren't going away, so that really isn't an option.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Which is all the more reason that consumers need to be very careful what they are buying. It would be interesting to see under what exact conditions these radios comply with Part 90. Reduced power? Reduced deviation? I have seen a number of low parts count radios where to meet the required emission masks, the deviation or power must be reduced. A look at the FCC grant is required to discern such shenanigans.

Edit: I did look at most of these to see what emission designators were used. Only one had proper 11K0F3E part 90 narrow band. The rest have odd bandwidth from 5 to 10 KHz. That means they will have poor modulation . These are junk radios for part 90.

There are several manufacturers that have FCC Part 90 certified UV-5R clones.
Look at the external and internal photos. They are all basically the same radio.
https://fccid.io/ZP5BF-5R
https://fccid.io/ZP5BF-5RA
https://fccid.io/ZP5BF-F9V2
https://fccid.io/ZVMUV-E5
https://fccid.io/QGDTD-Q8
https://fccid.io/PODTH-UVF9
There are probably even more that I haven't found yet.

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12dbsinad

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Most of the guys here defending Motorola's loss of profit probably work in densely populated areas that deal with large trunked systems, both public safety and business. In those areas, CCR's and the affects to Motorola and the like are a non issue. Move to rural America..., business, and private organizations, you'll find more of a impact. It's just the way it is and in no way am I taking sides in this discussion.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Honestly? Sure! The more the merrier. No need to make it some exclusive club. I think the tests are stupid and outdated, quite frankly. I've been saying it for years. If they were to open the bands up to everybody, I would have absolutely no issue with that. Of course, the old crusty hams would probably have a heart attack over something like that.

FRS is already license by rule anyway. Anybody with a radio from Walmart CAN get on the air. Would you rather have the CCRs on the FRS band or on the public safety bands? They aren't going away, so that really isn't an option.

I would rather not have crappy non FCC compliant low parts count radios relegated to FRS which is shared by GMRS a licensed service. Instead, the FCC and US Customs should seize them at the dock and run a steamroller over them.

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scanmanmi

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There could be a legal issue. I recently spoke with an attorney about a patent issue of the Chinese producing an item that is patented and there is little that can be done. Most people have a hard time comprehending that an American law is meaningless to someone in another country. Several countries have outlawed alcohol. Does that apply to you? No. So the "guy with the pony tail and sandals in his cubicle" at the FCC can write up some administarative rules (which really aren't laws) and it doesn't apply to foreigners. They are trying to get voluntary obedience. Maybe they'll add them to their list of contraban they try to confiscate.
 

alcahuete

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I would rather not have crappy non FCC compliant low parts count radios relegated to FRS which is shared by GMRS a licensed service. Instead, the FCC and US Customs should seize them at the dock and run a steamroller over them.

Well that isn't going to happen. Customs can't even stop the real illegal items from coming into our country.

And as I mentioned several times, it's easy to get around it. Those same low parts count radios are going to be marketed as ham radios, or they're going to get the nonsense Part 90 certification like they are already getting, and will be on the bands anyway.

The radios are here, they are going to keep coming here, and one way or another they are going to be on the bands, whether we like it or not. I would much rather have them pollute FRS/GMRS than the business and public service bands, but that's just me. ;)
 

AK9R

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It would be interesting to see under what exact conditions these radios comply with Part 90. Reduced power? Reduced deviation?
As you discovered, that is exactly the issue. Most of these supposedly Part 90 compliant radios are certificated using less than 11 kHz total bandwidth and low power (1-2 watts). When the importers and retailers market them as 5 watt Part 90 radios, they are violating the radios' FCC certification. And, I think, this is the FCC's issue in that the radios are certificated one way, but sold a different way.

For those who are unfamiliar with how the FCC certification grants show transmitted bandwidth, the first four characters of the emission designator in the certification grant is the bandwidth. A so-called narrow-band radio with a deviation of +/- 2.5 kHz will have a bandwidth of 11 kHz or "11K0" in FCC emission designator lingo. A radio transmitting an 11 kHz wide signal can fit into 12.5 kHz wide channels.
 

AK9R

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Most people have a hard time comprehending that an American law is meaningless to someone in another country.
To which I say "so what". U.S. law still applies in the United States of America and people who do business in this country are expected to comply with U.S. law in their business dealings here. Being a foreigner does not give you a free pass to violate U.S. law in our country.
 

n9lya

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Availability continues.

That doesn't mean you'll get it, though.

Nothing is going away... They will be available for decades...
I ordered 10 and got them in two days.. (Yesterday by the way) Figured I paid $15 ea and can sell them for $50 at tomorrow hamfest due to the hysteria.. or is that listeria...
 

kbroderick

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Nothing is going away... They will be available for decades...
I ordered 10 and got them in two days.. (Yesterday by the way) Figured I paid $15 ea and can sell them for $50 at tomorrow hamfest due to the hysteria.. or is that listeria...

This has already affect availability--and unfortunately it may be hitting the more-reliable / more-reputable sellers more than the random eBay / Amazon sellers. buytwowayradios.com, for example, has pulled the TYT TH-7800 due to not meeting the FCC requirements, but the same radio is still available on Amazon (it does remain to be seen if it gets restocked after the "12 left" currently in stock get sold).
 

n1das

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Which is all the more reason that consumers need to be very careful what they are buying. It would be interesting to see under what exact conditions these radios comply with Part 90. Reduced power? Reduced deviation? I have seen a number of low parts count radios where to meet the required emission masks, the deviation or power must be reduced. A look at the FCC grant is required to discern such shenanigans.

Edit: I did look at most of these to see what emission designators were used. Only one had proper 11K0F3E part 90 narrow band. The rest have odd bandwidth from 5 to 10 KHz. That means they will have poor modulation . These are junk radios for part 90.

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I think the short answer is....they don't. The TCBs are letting this stuff slip through the cracks and nobody at the FCC is checking.

One useful feature of ham radios that the CCRs have is full end user programmability directly from the radio's keypad. This makes the radio ineligible for Part 90 (or 95) even if it meets all other technical requirements (freq tolerance/stability, bandwidth, modulation, etc.). The end user can easily dial up any transmit frequency on the fly instead of staying only on the specific frequencies they are licensed for. This is fine for legit ham use but not OK on other radio services.

High quality Part 90 equipment from reputable manufacturers (Motorola, Kenwood, EF Johnson, Hytera, etc.) typically include some level of field programmability. Access to the feature is limited by some method (per FCC rule?) so the normal Part 90 end user can't put the radio in field program mode and can only operate on the programmed channels. It is just a channelized radio to the Part 90 end user. In Kenwood and Hytera radios I've owned, the field program aka self-program feature is enabled or disabled using the programming software. The radio dealer normally does the programming and disables the self-program feature before delivery to the Part 90 end customer.

The problem with the CCRs is they come with full transmit capability enabled right out of the box on all frequencies it covers. That's full transmit capability on 136-174MHz and 400-470MHz, and some work a ways up into the UHF T-band. Any transmit frequency can be dialed up on the fly from the radio's keypad. Programming software (i.e., CHIRP) is another way to do it but there's no restrictions to ensure the radio can operate only as a channelized radio for a Part 90 (or 95) end user. This can be potentially dangerous in terms of harmful interference threats when in the hands of the wrong people, including clueless users.

I agree, they are junk radios. They are junk radios, period.

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Darmtn

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"One useful feature of ham radios that the CCRs have is full end user programmability directly from the radio's keypad. This makes the radio ineligible for Part 90 (or 95) even if it meets all other technical requirements (freq tolerance/stability, bandwidth, modulation, etc.). The end user can easily dial up any transmit frequency on the fly instead of staying only on the specific frequencies they are licensed for. This is fine for legit ham use but not OK on other radio"

What about all the midlands, Relm,King, et al that are front programmable/
 

n1das

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"One useful feature of ham radios that the CCRs have is full end user programmability directly from the radio's keypad. This makes the radio ineligible for Part 90 (or 95) even if it meets all other technical requirements (freq tolerance/stability, bandwidth, modulation, etc.). The end user can easily dial up any transmit frequency on the fly instead of staying only on the specific frequencies they are licensed for. This is fine for legit ham use but not OK on other radio"

What about all the midlands, Relm,King, et al that are front programmable/

I am not familiar with the Midlands, RELM, King, etc. radios. I would expect them to have a programming option to disable FPP for Part 90 end users. Are they always front panel programmable (FPP) like a ham 2m/440 handheld? The CCRs like a Baofeng UV-5R is always FPP enabled, IIRC.

My Kenwood P25 handhelds and my Hytera DMR handhelds have FPP capability and the feature has to be enabled in the software for it to work. Disabling the FPP feature with the programming software would render them not FPP capable for a "normal" Part 90 end user.
 

MTS2000des

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What about all the midlands, Relm,King, et al that are front programmable/
Motorola limits the sale of FPP to authorized NTIA customers. FPP for anyone else also requires a hardware "dongle" or in the case of the HT-1550XLS, a "special" battery to be installed by the user to "unlock" the radios' FPP capability. In MSI products, the FPP frequency range can be further limited via CPS. None of these radios are sold as out of the box FPP the way these CCRs are.

Kenwood's Tactical Feature Set is a special order factory option, again, intended for certain customers (such as railroads or US Forest Service, which aren't subject to Part 90 rule limiting FPP) and they don't mass market the feature and you have to order it from the factory.

At the end of the day, the difference between reputable manufacturers and China turd radios with their dubious and fraudulent FCC certifications aren't mass marketing radios that are, out of the box, capable and agile to transmit RF power higher than part 15 regulations permit on spectrum that consumers have ZERO business being on. Reputable manufacturers respect laws and play by the rules. Scummy junk peddlers give the middle finger to the FCC, ICE, and you the consumer, for selling junk that is intentionally misrepresented as being legal when it isn't.
 

bill4long

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This has already affect availability--and unfortunately it may be hitting the more-reliable / more-reputable sellers more than the random eBay / Amazon sellers. buytwowayradios.com, for example, has pulled the TYT TH-7800 due to not meeting the FCC requirements, but the same radio is still available on Amazon (it does remain to be seen if it gets restocked after the "12 left" currently in stock get sold).

It's a simple firmware fix, so I wouldn't expect the TH-7800 to disappear from new shipments.

The thing is, all Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood (etc) VHF/UHF amateur radios can transmit, if you simply clip a diode or resistor, across most of the Land Mobile spectrum. So this is all ado about nothing. The advisory will have absolutely no impact on anyone transmitting illegally if they want to, which I assume is the reason for the advisory.

(When they say it isn't about the money, it's about the money.)
 

AK9R

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...if you simply clip a diode or resistor...
Which is a hardware modification that the FCC has historically accepted as sufficient to prevent the radios, as sold, from transmitting outside the amateur radio bands. The CCRs typically do not have this feature which has always been an indication to me that the manufacturers and importers have been primarily intent in going after the Part 90 and Part 95 market.
 
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