San Bernardino systems 8 & 9

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N6RDC

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I've read the various threads about the recent changes to the San Bernardino systems, encryption, etc and had been able to monitor systems 6/7, 8 and 9 but recently I can't receive anything on systems 8 and 9.
I know I was at least receiving fire departments and ambulance.
Does anyone have info as far as changes to frequencies or talk groups? System 6/7 is still coming in great with fire and AMR ambulance.
Any input is greatly appreciated!
 

krazybob

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Lake Arrowhead, Southern California
I've read the various threads about the recent changes to the San Bernardino systems, encryption, etc and had been able to monitor systems 6/7, 8 and 9 but recently I can't receive anything on systems 8 and 9.
I know I was at least receiving fire departments and ambulance.
Does anyone have info as far as changes to frequencies or talk groups? System 6/7 is still coming in great with fire and AMR ambulance.
Any input is greatly appreciated!
It sounds like you're using an older scanner and don't have the new frequencies programmed in. The baud rate as I recall has increased.

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You wont hear much if anything on the 9 system now... OTO dispatch has switched to the digital and same with ontario pd has been on the digital. 8 is still active.
 

krazybob

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You wont hear much if anything on the 9 system now... OTO dispatch has switched to the digital and same with ontario pd has been on the digital. 8 is still active.
8 is still active because of the considerable mutual-aid that are on VHF. Cal Fire, Forest Service, Big Bear Lake, and Big Bear City. And then there's Arrowbear who is dispatch by Cal Fire. It is also being used now to dispatch AMR.

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krazybob

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That's AMR Victorville's TG, it's a pretty busy area
Actually, TG 5200 on System 8 is the out-of-area dispatch. The primary Victorville dispatch is on System 1 on Quartzite Mountain. But I agree that they are heard on System 8 at night time quite a bit. Not during the day time though. I don't know if they cut down to one dispatcher who has the TGs patched together since I can't hear system one from my location. I do know that system 8 works quite well out in the desert. My 2 meter repeater located here on Heaps Peak tears up the high desert even better than my machine on Quartzite. System 8 is presumably from Keller Peak since Strawberry Peak has limited coverage of the high desert. Almost none.

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krazybob

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Actually, TG 5200 on System 8 is the out-of-area dispatch. The primary Victorville dispatch is on System 1 on Quartzite Mountain. But I agree that they are heard on System 8 at night time quite a bit. Not during the day time though. I don't know if they cut down to one dispatcher who has the TGs patched together since I can't hear system one from my location. I do know that system 8 works quite well out in the desert. My 2 meter repeater located here on Heaps Peak tears up the high desert even better than my machine on Quartzite. System 8 is presumably from Keller Peak since Strawberry Peak has limited coverage of the high desert. Almost none.

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I hate it when I have to admit I made a mistake but it's better I do it before somebody else does. I inadvertently put that Strawberry Peak has limited coverage of the high desert. I was actually looking and thinking of Sunset Ridge which has almost zero coverage out into the high desert. Strawberry Peak only has partial coverage of the high desert. Quartzsite Remains the primary site for the high desert on the west side and then switches to Rodman and Flash on the east side. My apologies. My posts are delayed appearing so you may see this tomorrow.

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krazybob

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As I previously stated Strawberry only provides partial coverage of the high desert. San Bernardino County Fire transmits at 35 watts into a 6db gain antenna from 1860m (6100ish feet). Using the standard 90% coverage standard (90% coverage 90% of the time) you will see that Strawberry does not provide a 90% coverage using HT's. HT's are the primary radio when used on scene. Thus, Quartzite is the high desert primary site. Strawberry can only handle a portion of the populated land mass.

strawberry800ht.jpg
 

zz0468

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That coverage map looks rather pessimistic. What propagation model did you use, and what is the terrain cell size. It looks "blocky".

It resemblance portable on the hip 800 coverage. VHF on a mobile will look quite different.
 

krazybob

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As I previously stated Strawberry only provides partial coverage of the high desert. San Bernardino County Fire transmits at 35 watts into a 6db gain antenna from 1860m (6100ish feet). Using the standard 90% coverage standard (90% coverage 90% of the time) you will see that Strawberry does not provide a 90% coverage using HT's. HT's are the primary radio when used on scene. Thus, Quartzite is the high desert primary site. Strawberry can only handle a portion of the populated land mass.

strawberry800ht.jpg
The radio coverage prediction map previously shown is based on handheld receive signal strength at the repeater site. Handhelds are the primary means of communications on scene. Fireman and Deputies don't go back to their unit to speak with dispatch. In most cases they use their handheld on their hip with a microphone that comes up and over their shoulder.

The profile used to represent this map was a handheld 1.8m above ground (5' 10") with a zero gain antenna and 3 Watts RF output. This is the standard profile for 90% coverage 90% of the time. The APCO standard. Of course a 15 watt mobile with the 3dB gain antenna would do much better.

When the radio is on the hip the body can act as a wall between the user and the repeater site they're talking into thus decreasing the signal strength even more than what the prediction map shows.

Research has shown that the body acts as it does because positioning a large human body between the transmitter's antenna and the receiver's antenna can cause a degradation in RF performance. The human body is made up primarily of "salt water." Salt water is an effective absorber of RF energy. That's why submarines need to surface to send out a radio signal.

If you put an HT on your hip and do a 360° turn while listening to the transmitter you will hear in most cases the transmitter fading in and out as you turn. This has been well known for years. It's more prevalent at the higher frequencies. In fact on transmitter hunts that ham radio operators do they routinely hold an HT to their body and turn their body until they can peak or null the radio signal that they're hunting for.

Overall, this is why there is a need for more transmitter locations than might normally be required. I can tell you that on BDC V2 and V3 they work fantastic in the desert because they are VHF. The 800MHz system requires more repeater locations. BDC V2 transmits from Heaps Peak, the Big Bear sheriff station, Onyx Summit, and San Savine, which is Lytle Creek. Heaps peak in particular provides excellent coverage of the high desert. I speak from experience. I can't say whether or not the Onyx Summit repeater is on the air yet since a fire recently destroyed the main building and a second outbuilding. Once firefighters got on-scene they reported that both structures were burned to the ground.

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zz0468

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The profile used to represent this map was a handheld 1.8m above ground (5' 10") with a zero gain antenna and 3 Watts RF output. This is the standard profile for 90% coverage 90% of the time. The APCO standard. Of course a 15 watt mobile with the 3dB gain antenna would do much better.

I'm still curious what propagation model you used to create the map. Different models produce more accurate results for different circumstances. Your map looks rather pessimistic, and blocky. RF doesn't just stop propagating in rectangular sections, so I'm curious about the size of the terrain cells you used, and the propagation model you used. Also the frequency you used. Was it done with radio-mobile?
 

krazybob

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I was wondering how long the same misinformation was going to be repeated.

From the people I talked to that have direct knowledge of the incident, everything remained on the air as well.

This occurred at 1:30 p.m. on Christmas Eve 2018. Some of you just go out of your way to tell me that I'm wrong. You can tell me I'm wrong and I can tell you flat out that I monitored the call in progress. I'm pretty confident you didn't.

The initial call was of a radio tower burning. A full vegetation response was initiated. San Bernardino County Fire units were first in the area and got bogged down by snow. They had to chain up to get to the location. The first units on scene described it as the "main building" being burnt down to the foundation along with a second 20 x 20 outbuilding. The structure was specifically identified as housing the new County radio system equipment. They also identified a propane tank outgassing and as a result the Battalion Chief ordered all units to remain clear of the location. That propane tank was attached to the building running the generator when not on batteries. For most of you that are unfamiliar, Onyx Summit radio site is solar-powered.

The unit (E282) specifically stated that the "main building" and a 20 x 20 outbuilding where burnt to the foundation. You can talk to all the people with supposed knowledge you want. Maybe the person you talk to and their radio system did not burn to the ground. The tower was on fire. Fire burns up 22 times faster than down and if you've ever been on a radio tower you know there's nothing to burn. It's hard-line connected to antennas.

But you don't care about that. All you want to do is declare despite direct observation by radio that I'm wrong. That's your entire goal. You can call it misinformation all you want. It is the information that came out over the radio.

Read the information for yourself from another source that you're not automatically going to disbelieve.

Socalmountains.com

Then have the decency to come back and apologize to me.

I will no longer financially support this site. I've done so as a courtesy to Lindsay but no more.

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krazybob

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Krazybob, you're misinformed about Onyx. No radio equipment was lost.
By the way, you are misinformed. Not only did I monitor this directly but it was monitored by Socalmountains. I am in no way related to Socalmountains. I however looked up the incident on their Twitter feed so that I could get the date. As it happens they had a play-by-play that tracked along with mine.

Socalmountains is headquartered in Baldwin Lake and it has direct earshot of simplex communications to Onyx. I do not. Even with my beams pointed it Onyx I cannot hear them except on VHF. I can only hear what comes over the repeater. I'm honored CALFIRE, BLM, and Forest Service. I also monitored County Fire on County Fire V2.

Big Bear E282 Has Made It To Fire - Well Involved Outbuilding At Radio Site - 1 Exposure (lp Gas) - No Threat To Vegetation - Addi Socalmountains.com

I will never understand the blatant disrespect.

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f40ph

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Not sure how "you're misinformed" is blatant disrespect but... sure... he can take it however he wants to. Free country and all...

I'm replying not to Krazy but because he's spreading bad information to the other good people on this forum. This message is for them because they deserve it...

I monitored the call in progress including images from a security camera on site. In fact, just to prove AGAIN more misinformation, the "first" FFs at the site were NOT county FFs as was said, it was Big Bear FD. You don't have to trust my words, I'm not offended, pull up the broadcastify feed and listen to the audio. Big Bear FD (those are the engines in the two-eighty series) got their engine stuck part-way up the road and had to WALK the rest of the way (only to give a report on conditions). Not that it matters much but I also spoke directly with the BC DURING the incident. By coincidence, I also spoke this past week with a manager at County radio who told me it was the main generator building only and NO equipment was lost. If losing new radio equipment were true, it would/will be public record when they go to the county board of supervisors and put in a claim for replacement digital repeaters. Yes the FFs "said" it was the "main" building over the radio. Those initial FFs had NEVER been up there before to know one building from another. I don't think they actually know what the "main" building is and who could blame them for that? Their radio report did NOT say anything like "specifically identified as housing the new County radio system equipment." How would they even know this?

At any rate, read my posts closely I'm here not to disrespect but to inform.
 
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