Super antenna

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

There is, as far as I know, no accepted DB's per S Unit- but the the standard of 6 per is a pretty good number. An "S-unit" is not a scientific number, it was devised back in the dark ages by receiver makers as 'whistle' for their commercial stuff--- and as any one who has given out, or received a

"...QSL, you're 59...Q-R- --Zed...."

Wham-Bam contact knows, "S-units" are meaningless. How many really know what a "Five Nine plus 20 Dee-Bee'" signal is ? Or can accurately interpret their S-meters?

A good 40 metre mobile signal, watt for watt, will generally run about 12 DB's less than a 'good' full size quarter wave vertical.** The human ear can not hear a one "S- Unit" difference, and barely a two. So I wouldn't sweat the numbers.

I have used extensively 8 MHz SSB mobile radios thru-out the Western US and Canada. 150 watts to an auto tuned 6 foot whip, high mounted on the side of utility vehicles-- They are generally indistinguishable, signal strength wise, from our 'base' stations. But we paid scrupulous attention to the antennas and things like ground losses.

A properly installed, short vertical can perform wonders, but like I said, it has to be approached scientifically.

There is no such thing as a "Super Antenna"............. sorry Guys........



Lauri

_________________________________________________________-


** A Coyote number- swallow with caution.....

 

[prcguy]

Collins standardized S units as 6dB per unit with S9 being 100uv well before I was born. Later in around the late 60s the Japanese standardized on 50uv for S9 and that's what most current amateur radios follow. I find most amateur radios I test are pretty close to S9 with 50uv if nobody has molested its innards. However very few radios track well at 6dB per S unit, probably components out of tolerance compared to the original prototype, etc.

I've never found using a radio S meter anywhere near accurate for antenna gain or front to back ratio, you can almost guess closer. I do occasionally use an Icom R8600 for casual antenna comparisons as it has a selectable scale in S, dBuV or dBm, which is very accurate and tracks well over a wide range.

There is, as far as I know, no accepted DB's per S Unit- but the the standard of 6 per is a pretty good number. An "S-unit" is not a scientific number, it was devised back in the dark ages by receiver makers as 'whistle' for their commercial stuff--- and as any one who has given out, or received a

"...QSL, you're 59...Q-R- --Zed...."

Wham-Bam contact knows, "S-units" are meaningless. How many really know what a "Five Nine plus 20 Dee-Bee'" signal is ? Or can accurately interpret their S-meters?

A good 40 metre mobile signal, watt for watt, will generally run about 12 DB's less than a 'good' full size quarter wave vertical.** The human ear can not hear a one "S- Unit" difference, and barely a two. So I wouldn't sweat the numbers.

I have used extensively 8 MHz SSB mobile radios thru-out the Western US and Canada. 150 watts to an auto tuned 6 foot whip, high mounted on the side of utility vehicles-- They are generally indistinguishable, signal strength wise, from our 'base' stations. But we paid scrupulous attention to the antennas and things like ground losses.

A properly installed, short vertical can perform wonders, but like I said, it has to be approached scientifically.

There is no such thing as a "Super Antenna"............. sorry Guys........



Lauri

_________________________________________________________-


** A Coyote number- swallow with caution.....

 

[alcahuete]

I don't know about the Super Antenna, but I've used the Alpha FMJ successfully for about a year, while I'm waiting to rebuild my towers. The thing just plain kicks butt, and doesn't have any tuning or crazy SWR rulers or anything. Just plug the thing into coax and it works.

I've talked around the world on it, even in these current conditions, and it's great on the FT8 maps seeing the thing light up receivers all over the world. I think the price is similar, so something you might consider. People are blown away when I tell them what I'm using. Is it as good as my beam or even a full-size vertical? Of course not, but for a 13' antenna that breaks down and fits in a bag, it's not too shabby.

 

[Ubbe]

Set an RF signal generator to -120dBm and connect to the antenna connector of a receiver and then raise 6dB to -114dBm and I'll guarantee that you'll hear the difference. I can clearly hear a 3dB difference when tuning a receiver when a signal are weak enough to have some noise in the demodulated audio.

When it comes to audio preassure levels the human ear can just about hear the 3dB difference between a 80dBA and 83dBA sound.

/Ubbe

 

[prcguy]

If the whip on the Alpha FMJ were the same length at the Super Antenna or Buddistick, they would leave the Alpha in the dust in performance. The Alpha is just an un-un balun aroun 5:1 ratio and similar but not as good as the Chameleon equivalent. (OMG, did I just give Chameleon a cookie?) The Super Antenna and Buddistick/Buddipole are both resonant antennas where the Alpha is not and there are more losses associated with the Alpha.

I don't know about the Super Antenna, but I've used the Alpha FMJ successfully for about a year, while I'm waiting to rebuild my towers. The thing just plain kicks butt, and doesn't have any tuning or crazy SWR rulers or anything. Just plug the thing into coax and it works.

I've talked around the world on it, even in these current conditions, and it's great on the FT8 maps seeing the thing light up receivers all over the world. I think the price is similar, so something you might consider. People are blown away when I tell them what I'm using. Is it as good as my beam or even a full-size vertical? Of course not, but for a 13' antenna that breaks down and fits in a bag, it's not too shabby.

 

[vagrant]

(OMG, did I just give Chameleon a cookie?)

WTF? Everything just froze down here. Oh well, back to playing with my inefficient Chameleon F-Loop and having some fun outdoors this Memorial Day weekend. Besides, why go vertical when you can have fun going in circles.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

...........Set an RF signal generator to -120dBm and connect....... Ubbe


I should have prefaced that with something like 'in the field.'

If you set up a lab experiment where you listen to a modulated signal while its power is increased, I agree, you should hear it get louder.-- for now we have a reference for comparison.
Will 3 DB's sound twice as loud?... I'm not a physiologist........

If you repeat that scenario in a noisy environment, comparing a "RST 57" signal with a "56"- not knowing which is which, I defy any but the most astute to say they hear a difference. In Real World- with QSB, QRN etc.,-- they will sound the same to the average operator' ear. **

My (soft science) bottom line is, an extra "S-Unit" doesn't make much difference in a Real World setting except to the purists.


Lauri


_____________________________________________________________

** And I am acutely aware of the minefield I am treading here- Hams will say they can hear Anything- and perhaps they can- (I can't)-- but then too, I'm referring to the average Suzy/Joe's. As a physicist I try to also be practical, often walking the line over into the social and biological sciences-

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

.
Something about my soliloquy on signal strength didn't set easily with me. So I ran it passed a trusted friend, at lunch.

________________________________________________________________________________________


"You got your sciences mixed up, Dear..." she said

"You were comparing radio frequencies with audio"

"If we set the audio level to a constant, and vary only the strength of the received signal, what is being perceived is only a decrease in the ambient background noise level. The signal will sound like it is getting louder becuz it is rising above the noise floor"

"Will we call this "louder" or should it be called "clearer?"

"It won't be sounding "louder" until we increase the detected signal as audio....turn up the volume..... what is coming thru the speaker."

"Your question is, does a radio signal of a certain strength, when increased by X-number of DB's decrease the ambient noise enuff to sound different to the ear?....does it sound 'louder' or does it sound "clearer ?" '

"Certainly if you increased the audio volume it will sound different, but it would have anyway "

"We are now mixing in the human brain..... what happens when you can't hear something clearly?... you turn up the volume and make it... louder."

"........ and there is where the science becomes, as you put it, "soft." '

***************

"Can I finish my lunch now..... ? "



Lauri

 

[alcahuete]

If the whip on the Alpha FMJ were the same length at the Super Antenna or Buddistick...

But it's not. And until it is, it will continue to handily outperform them both.

 

[prcguy]

I would say amplitude modulated signals like AM and SSB should sound louder as the signal strength is increased from the point of weak signal detection until the receivers AGC is in effect and this depends somewhat on the individual receiver. Some receivers are quieter than others making the small changes easier to hear. Maybe not dB for dB RF level to audio level, but it should be noticeable. For weak signal amplitude modes a 3dB change in RF level is very noticeable to me. Same with quieting on FM, a 3dB RF level change is noticeable.

During some speaker design and testing I found I can easily discern sub 1dB acoustic changes when setting midrange or tweeter settings. This was verified with SPL meters.

.
Something about my soliloquy on signal strength didn't set easily with me. So I ran it passed a trusted friend, at lunch.

________________________________________________________________________________________


"You got your sciences mixed up, Dear..." she said

"You were comparing radio frequencies with audio"

"If we set the audio level to a constant, and vary only the strength of the received signal, what is being perceived is only a decrease in the ambient background noise level. The signal will sound like it is getting louder becuz it is rising above the noise floor"

"Will we call this "louder" or should it be called "clearer?"




"It won't be sounding "louder" until we increase the detected signal as audio....turn up the volume..... what is coming thru the speaker."

"Your question is, does a radio signal of a certain strength, when increased by X-number of DB's decrease the ambient noise enuff to sound different to the ear?....does it sound 'louder' or does it sound "clearer ?" '

"Certainly if you increased the audio volume it will sound different, but it would have anyway "

"We are now mixing in the human brain..... what happens when you can't hear something clearly?... you turn up the volume and make it... louder."

"........ and there is where the science becomes, as you put it, "soft." '

***************

"Can I finish my lunch now..... ? "



Lauri

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

Yes, I was not thinking AGC's .... my friend and I were more off into the soft stuff....
There is a lot more to this than just what is seen on the surface, No ?
....Smiles


Lauri

 

[prcguy]

But is its when I use them cuz I always use a longer whip around 15-17ft on the lower bands. I still have a bunch of Buddistick parts, the coil and a few mast sections and if I can find some time I will compare with my Chameleon CHA MPAS with 17ft whip which works the same as your Alpha FMJ, despite Chameleons superior construction.

I have a garage full of this kind of stuff and one setup that stands out is a tapped coil sold on Fleabay called a 392M. 392M HF mobile antenna coil all band ham marine mars cap military 80 - 10 meters | eBay

The guy that makes it guaranteed me it will tune any frequency from 3.5 to 30MHz and would give me a refund if it didn't. I proved it does and its fairly efficient and with a short mast below the coil and 9 to 17ft whip on top depending on frequency, it kicks butt for fixed mobile or temporary base use with a large ground screen. I like it much better than the Buddipole type coils with the fragile taps and this coil handles about twice the power of a Buddipole coil. The 392M coil with a 9ft or longer whip will noticeably outperform all the no tune mystery coil types like the Alpha or Chameleon. However I am impressed with the build quality of Chameleon products, they are a few notches above the others.

For about $200 using the 392M coil, a surplus segmented 10ft AT-271 military whip and a few other parts you will have a much better performing HF antenna system than the Super Antenna or Alpha FMJ or Chameleon that cost at least twice as much.

But it's not. And until it is, it will continue to handily outperform them both.

 

[alcahuete]

But is its when I use them cuz I always use a longer whip around 15-17ft on the lower bands. I still have a bunch of Buddistick parts, the coil and a few mast sections and if I can find some time I will compare with my Chameleon CHA MPAS with 17ft whip which works the same as your Alpha FMJ, despite Chameleons superior construction.

Again, apples to oranges. I'm talking about a stock antenna on a 5' tall tripod, not some custom built antenna with various parts...or at least I thought that's what we were talking about. I'm sure the FMJ would work better on the low bands with a 17' whip too...or 26'...or 130'. If we want to get crazy, so will my various yagis. But it's all apples to oranges.

Again, it's a stock 13' antenna with no radial field, nothing extra...a simple antenna on a 5' tall tripod.

Here is from 2 or 3 days ago on FT8. Not bad. A 10,500+ mile trip on 40m with a FMJ. I'll take that all day long in these conditions! And in fact, I do...every single day.

For about $200 using the 392M coil, a surplus segmented 10ft AT-271 military whip and a few other parts you will have a much better performing HF antenna system than the Super Antenna or Alpha FMJ or Chameleon that cost at least twice as much.

Well...if you don't mind constantly moving wires anytime you want to change bands. No thanks. For a portable antenna which rarely sees use anyway, my FMJ works fine. Set it up in about 2 minutes, run the coax, and that's it. I don't need to touch a thing.

 

[AK9R]

A reminder that the OP's question was about the Super Antenna. Not Alpha, not Buddistick, not Chameleon, not eBay specials.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

.
.

Ok, so this little antenna got to me.

I just order'd one this morning- with the MC60 coil (that's what I plan to use it on, mostly -- 60 metre's.)

My reasoning for the purchase was a bit different than anything technical.
I well know, as I have espoused, all its limitations.... But I like the esthetic of its design.

For some time I have wanted to do HF from DC, but I have to be careful about what I place outside my condo. A potted plant can raise the eyebrows of 'The Committee'- that's to say nothing when it comes to an HF antenna.

My second floor has a roof top balcony that overlooks a wooded area- few should ever see this antenna up there. But still, I want something that looks decent.. no Rube Goldberg contraptions, for I don't want to have to explain it to my guests. Most of them know what I do professionally, and just accept that my random gadgets could electrocute them at any moment if they move carelessly--

I think I'll call it "Modern Art Sculpture"- maybe put a little museum tag on it; something like

Ode au petit Ariel.


This should be fun, and when its ever 'put it on the air' I will write a report.



Lauri

 

[bearcatrp]

Tried my super antenna last night. Listened to something down in South America. 1st, found a station with the antenna that came with the R30. 2 bars. Then hooked it up to my diamond D220R, same 2 bars. Then hooked it up to the super antenna, pegged max bars. Oh, all done in my living room. I was surprised. Will be comparing again outside soon. Like it so far.

 

[K5mow]

Tried my super antenna last night. Listened to something down in South America. 1st, found a station with the antenna that came with the R30. 2 bars. Then hooked it up to my diamond D220R, same 2 bars. Then hooked it up to the super antenna, pegged max bars. Oh, all done in my living room. I was surprised. Will be comparing again outside soon. Like it so far.

I think you will continue to like it.

Roger



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ubbe]

Are the different antennas comparable in size? It's mostly about antenna size when dealing with shortwave. Are the D220R a shortwave antenna?

/Ubbe

 

[bearcatrp]

The D220R from diamond is a 100-1600 Mhz mini discone antenna.
Diamond® Antenna ~ D220R
The super antenna unit itself is about the same size, but when adding top antenna and bottom rod with antenna fully extended, about 3 time longer. I'll try to post a picture later. I just use these for receiving. Wanted small and portable to take camping and use at home until I get an outdoor antenna put up. Do a google search on super antenna and D220R and watch some videos about them.

 

[prcguy]

For SW receiving I would think the Super Antenna would be frustrating to use having to tweak it all the time while you tune through the different bands. For receive only I think one of the no tune 5:1 balun types like a Chameleon or Alpha Antenna would be easier to use while giving adequate reception.

The D220R from diamond is a 100-1600 Mhz mini discone antenna.
Diamond® Antenna ~ D220R
The super antenna unit itself is about the same size, but when adding top antenna and bottom rod with antenna fully extended, about 3 time longer. I'll try to post a picture later. I just use these for receiving. Wanted small and portable to take camping and use at home until I get an outdoor antenna put up. Do a google search on super antenna and D220R and watch some videos about them.