Question for those who use or have used portable radios in public safety.

[rapidcharger]

I'm having a debate with someone else over which radio behavior is better for responder safety.
A portable radio that powers off when the voltage is low so that the radio will perform to spec or a portable that extends usage time by cutting output power.
Please answer the poll question.

 

[jeatock]

Chirp "feed me" every two minutes, then chirp "FEED ME!!" every thirty seconds, then stay on and beeping until the battery is too low to sustain life.

Performance 'issue' with Icom, Vertex, and many other radio and scanner batteries: A battery with one bad cell will show full charge, then go flat when in TX because the one bad cell will not provide enough volts to keep the radio in full power transmit. Pre-TX volts may be 7.4, then drop under 6.5 in TX, then magically come back. In low volt condition the CPU will shift the transmitter final PA off, meaning that the radio will send a clean signal 50 feet just fine, but no further.

I see many 3~5 year old portable radios sent for repair that work just fine with a good battery.

Field sobriety check: Charge the battery then take it off the charger. Set it aside and come back 4 hours later. Put the radio on a channel nobody listens to. Hold PTT TX and look for a beep, red flashing TX light or battery gauge showing empty. If the radio continues transmitting at with no bad signs for 60~90 seconds (or the duration of the stick key time-out timer) everything is dandy. Release the PTT.

If the battery goes flat in TX then comes back to 'good' volts in a few minutes, remove the battery. Remove the belt clip if it is attached to the battery. Take a Sharpie and mark it "JUNK" or wrap it in a ball of tape most (not all) sane persons will see as a clue the battery is bad, or ideally both. Using your strong hand (right or not-right depending on your preference) throw the battery as hard as you can into an approved recycling receptacle. Replace the battery.

 

[rapidcharger]

Chirp "feed me" every two minutes, then chirp "FEED ME!!" every thirty seconds, then stay on and beeping until the battery is too low to sustain life.

As Alec Trebek says, "We need you to be a little more specific".
We get that you are into chirps but are you for or against staying on in low power mode?
What do you consider sustaining life?

 

[MTS2000des]

Before I deployed hundreds of new APX series subscribers, the agreed templates all had "low battery early alert" enabled. The radios operate at full output until they can no longer safely be operated. The "low battery" audible and visual indicators are enabled on FIRE radios, on LAW radios the tones can be silenced IF the user selects the "surveillance" profile. This is sometime required by SWAT/SRT but they are fully aware they must check their gear before deploying on a call. As radio support, we are available and will be on scene with freshly charged/conditioned batteries, chargers, and needed peripherals to support an extended operation. This is the case with many entities of similar size.

In all cases, the APX radio functions at rated power by design and sound the audible "low battery" chrip and visual indications (APX actually shows the words LOW BATT with a RED highlight) until the voltage falls below 6.5 volts, at which time the radio powers off.

After discussing this with two subject matter experts with 60 years of combined actual field work in one of the largest fire rescue agencies in north America with an elite team of communications professionals with decades of experience in actual field work supporting portable radios in IDLH environments, their opinion combined with consultation with stakeholder users all agreed: WE WANT TO KNOW WHEN OUR EQUIPMENT IS SUBJECT TO FAILING BEFORE IT FAILS OR FAILS TO OPERATE AT RATED SPECIFICATION.

The onus is then on the user and scene command to "lock out/tag out" any equipment indicating it is failing. Our agency SOP is such that, in IDLH settings, no one should be going into an unsafe environment with ANY radio showing a low battery indicator, or SCBA showing a low air condition, or any PAR equipment not registering properly. This is common sense 101 and mirrors NFPA/OSHA best practices and industry standards.

Radios that reduce their power WITHOUT AUDIBLE AND VISUAL WARNING to extend the battery life are fine for hams, GMRS, or users not operating in an environment where performance is paramount. Inside a burning building, or in a collapsed structure, or out in a rural area, one needs all they can. Any equipment that IS CAPABLE of being programmed for such is a hazard, especially since this is often the DEFAULT setting out of the factory. This is a just a piss poor design and should be eliminated from radio operating system (firmware) in future designs/releases. Audible warning is paramount in IDLH settings as users are often unable to see the small "L" on a display (or even see a radio display) in blackout/poor visibility which is commonplace in these conditions.

As was pointed out below, this is a DANGEROUS, and potentially DEADLY flaw that can prove to be a false sense of security- in short, if a battery is defective, losing charge where it can't perform to rated specification while under load, or otherwise failing, the USER SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY ALERTED VISUALLY AND AUDIBLY AND THE USER SHOULD LOCK OUT/TAG OUT SAID RADIO until it can be remedied and verified fit for IDLH service. The user should be stopped from using said radio by the radios operating system not allowing transmission (including registeration on a trunked radio network) by the radio's operating system by that visual and audible alert- this is no different than any other life safety equipment used in public safety such as AEDs, SCBAs, etc.

Performance 'issue' with Icom, Vertex, and many other radio and scanner batteries: A battery with one bad cell will show full charge, then go flat when in TX because the one bad cell will not provide enough volts to keep the radio in full power transmit. Pre-TX volts may be 7.4, then drop under 6.5 in TX, then magically come back. In low volt condition the CPU will shift the transmitter final PA off, meaning that the radio will send a clean signal 50 feet just fine, but no further.

Battery health checks should be performed by users and their support staff no different than they do with SCBA maintenance, AED maintenance, and all other life safety equipment. The IMPRES system from MSI is an excellent way to manage large numbers of batteries and track performance and note those that are nearing end of life. Batteries are relatively inexpensive compared to the cost of subscriber radios, and life is priceless.

Again, we aren't talking about ham/GMRS, we're discussing portable radios used specifically in IDLH and other safety of life operations.

All of the recommendations given for battery testing are great, but only if someone is checking on them. In my experience, portable radios are often ignored when they should be just as important to PM and keep checking on as much as firemen check SCBA and turnout gear, or LEOs check their weapons . I work hard everyday where I work to see that everyone I put my hands on is working the way it's supposed to be. The one time it is truly needed it should not be compromised or fail due to human error or poorly designed radio operating software (firmware) or bad programming.

 

[rapidcharger]

It's too late for me to edit the original post but in addition to cops and firefighters and EMTs and I'd like to now extend this poll to those who have used radios in combat or in the military. Low battery chirp or extended talk time at lower power.

I would like to hear from those who actually use the radios in the field.

 

[W8RMH]

I used portable radios for over 40 years and I don't remember one ever going dead. I certainly don't think it would be safe if the radio just died when it was needed.

 

[W5lz]

I honestly can't remember a battery 'going bad' in the field. I've left the @#$ thing on before and run the battery down, that's not that uncommon, and not the battery's fault. We had no standardization of radio channels, bad, yeah. But when you pick up a radio you weren't familiar with, it was just blind luck if you wound up on the right channel. I have to think that was at least part of the reason we didn't use a radio on the 'dirty' end of the stick much...

 

[jeatock]

User: "You need to look at my radio."

Me: "What's wrong?"

User: "I could talk 50 miles after roll call and heard everything all day. After dinner it started chirping every few minutes. I turned it down because the chirp was annoying, but I could only talk 50 feet."

Me: "You had a dead battery."

User: "How do you know?"

Me: (Beats head against wall.)

For many radio users, radios are black boxes full of voodoo jelly beans and magic smoke. A big button on the side lets you talk to everyone in the world, perfectly every single time it's pushed. A knob on top opens a sliding window that lets spirit voices out louder, and there's another knob next to the long remote mic curly-cord holder that does something else. There are unimportant cool looking buttons to play with when bored.

My point: Users are uncaring, impossible to train, and have unrealistic expectations.. They cannot tell the difference between a low-batt chirp and alert tones from dispatch. A few may remember that chirp means a dead battery, but not all. They expect the radio to transmit their voice perfectly any time the big black button is pushed, and automatically dropping TX power to save the CPU from reboot is at best folly and at worst dangerous.

 

[12dbsinad]

I used portable radios for over 40 years and I don't remember one ever going dead. I certainly don't think it would be safe if the radio just died when it was needed.

The number 1 problem with newer radios are they draw WAY WAY to much standby current. Just look at the APX7K/8K, the battery life with a good decent size battery is marginal at best. Older radios would run for 2 days without transmitting. Couple that with any weakness in the battery and you're doomed.

 

[W8RMH]

The number 1 problem with newer radios are they draw WAY WAY to much standby current. Just look at the APX7K/8K, the battery life with a good decent size battery is marginal at best. Older radios would run for 2 days without transmitting. Couple that with any weakness in the battery and you're doomed.

I was thinking the same thing. These new computerized radios draw more power. To answer the survey, I guess a lower power would be better than loosing all com capability especially, in an emergency. We used body pack radios only in those days as they still do (Hamilton County/Cincinnati, Ohio). I retired before trunked systems went into use. If I were out there today I would have a spare battery or two.

 

[MTS2000des]

To answer the survey, I guess a lower power would be better than loosing all com capability especially, in an emergency.

The issue I have with the Icom radios particularly, is that the user is not aware that their subscriber radio is operating in a degraded state. The poorly written firmware randomly "decides" to cut output power without ANY audible and barely any visual warning (unless you are studying the display, user won't notice the "L" indicator. And even if they do, it isn't obvious what it means. Cryptic at best).

In an IDLH setting, this is more deadly than an OBVIOUS audible LOW BATTERY signal sounding. As I was reminded by a 30 year veteran firefighter accountability instructor, in the fire service, fire personnel are ingrained to get out of a structure IMMEDIATELY and notify command that their radio battery, BA, or PAR device is not functioning. They don't re-enter until their gear issue is corrected and verified by IC.

The idiotic DEFAULT setting of having a subscriber radio reduce power output with no warning is the reason I will NEVER recommend these radios for IDLH use, and most SME's I've discussed this with concur it is a bad design and needs to be corrected by the manufacturer and could easily be with a firmware/cloning software.

Same goes for LAW use. A law officer in a shootout doesn't have time to look at their radio display and interpret some cryptic small single letter while dodging bullets. What is bad is they're keying up and not getting any indication their radio isn't transmitting with all it's needed power. All they know is their dispatcher isn't responding or he/she's telling them "you're unreadable". Again, moronic design and can cost someone their life. An audible indication of this state should be MANDATORY. Better yet, should behave like every other vendor and give a LOW BATT signal and not allow the user to keep using the radio if the radio can't function properly.

Many people fault vendors like MSI for ROS bugs, but at least they fix them. This "feature" has been in Icom radios since the 1990s and is plain stupid. Not telling a user who depends on something their equipment isn't operating at designed specification isn't good.

 

[rapidcharger]

The issue I have with the Icom radios particularly, is that the user is not aware that their subscriber radio is operating in a degraded state. The poorly written firmware randomly "decides" to cut output power without ANY audible and barely any visual warning (unless you are studying the display, user won't notice the "L" indicator. And even if they do, it isn't obvious what it means. Cryptic at best).

This is an optional feature though! The default setting lets out a very loud tone then turns the radio off.
You used to mock this behavior and say it was dangerous how it would just turn off.
I disabled the tones because they were triggering my misophonia and hyperacusis.

 

[rapidcharger]

My point: Users are uncaring, impossible to train, and have unrealistic expectations.. They cannot tell the difference between a low-batt chirp and alert tones from dispatch. A few may remember that chirp means a dead battery, but not all. They expect the radio to transmit their voice perfectly any time the big black button is pushed, and automatically dropping TX power to save the CPU from reboot is at best folly and at worst dangerous.

So it sounds like your answer is "none of the above" then?
No chirps, no reduced power?
And to clarify, is that opinion coming from a system admin or a user in the field? Because as a friendly courtesy reminder, the question was asked of users in the field.

Cutting the power is more than likely going to still give more than 50 feet of coverage. If this is going through a high site repeater, the difference might not even be noticed but let's say that it didn't. Couldn't 50' of coverage in a simplex fireground setting still be preferred over having no comms when the receiving station might only be right outside?

 

[jeatock]

Agreed.

However, most volunteer agencies are lucky to have an $6K radio budget - for the whole department, not just for one portable. That is why all radios leaving my shop chirp every two minutes on 'almost low', every fifteen seconds at 'very low', and a continuous tone at shutdown because the battery is dead flat.

Anyone going into a IDLH environment with a half-empty BA should be put on probation. Same for half-dead batteries. If the user ignores all warnings, you can't fix stupid. ILDH mission critical batteries should live on the charger until needed, and not expected to do double duty for six to ten hours before going into the hot zone. Not a brand-specific issue.

The recurring problem is with 'budget conscious' agencies that fail to replace L-I batteries when they are 36 months old or cycled 1K times. Battery inspection and scheduled replacement is about as popular as a root canal. Any tool that is improperly maintained is dangerous, and I found out long ago that Murphy is an optimist.

Also agreed that the radio should scream bloody murder in TX under 6.8VDC instead of just killing the PA. An old battery with one weak cell (surface voltage but no amperage) will show fine and dandy in the charger and will walk around silent on a belt all day. But when the user goes into TX the dead-cell voltage suddenly drops the battery to almost dead (shutting off the PA), then mysteriously fixes itself a minute later.

That most often shows when the user says others can hear the first part of his message, then the rad...

 

[kayn1n32008]

The number 1 problem with newer radios are they draw WAY WAY to much standby current. Just look at the APX7K/8K, the battery life with a good decent size battery is marginal at best. Older radios would run for 2 days without transmitting. Couple that with any weakness in the battery and you're doomed.

Trunk radios don’t ‘stand-by.’

A radio operating on a trunk system that has a continuous control channel(P25, DMR tier 3, NXDN type C) is in receive mode ALL the time regardless if it’s passing audio or sitting silently.

Of course they draw energy to do this, it’s not like these radios can have a hamster type of ‘battery saver’.

So it sounds like your answer is "none of the above" then?
No chirps, no reduced power?
And to clarify, is that opinion coming from a system admin or a user in the field? Because as a friendly courtesy reminder, the question was asked of users in the field.

Cutting the power is more than likely going to still give more than 50 feet of coverage. If this is going through a high site repeater, the difference might not even be noticed but let's say that it didn't. Couldn't 50' of coverage in a simplex fireground setting still be preferred over having no comms when the receiving station might only be right outside?

I think you miss the point. Anyone that is entering an IDLH needs to have a radio with a charged battery. Period. End of story. It’s life safety equipment no different than their SCBA, and their PASS. Anyone that does go into an IDLH environment with a dead/dying radio needs to be suspended and redo their training.

A lot of fire departments where I live have MUC’s in their first out engines, with spare batteries, so that their fire fighters don’t go into an IDLH environment with a radio that may randomly shut off, or reduce power.

 

[rapidcharger]

I think you miss the point. Anyone that is entering an IDLH needs to have a radio with a charged battery. Period. End of story. It’s life safety equipment no different than their SCBA, and their PASS. Anyone that does go into an IDLH environment with a dead/dying radio needs to be suspended and redo their training.

A lot of fire departments where I live have MUC’s in their first out engines, with spare batteries, so that their fire fighters don’t go into an IDLH environment with a radio that may randomly shut off, or reduce power.

Again, another friendly courtesy reminder that the question wasn't for those who work on the radio admin side of things. The question was for those who use them in the field.

I gather that it's a widely differing viewpoint from a responder in the field compared to a radio system tech or admin because from the sounds of things, it's an annoyance to have users think their radio is broken when it just has a dead battery and from another perspective, it's a life saver if the user needs to radio for help and for whatever reason their battery does not hold a full charge.

I know a lot of cops in very large agencies are on 12 hour shifts and that's a long time for batteries to be running. They may have started their shift with a full charge but it may not be so full towards the end.

Having batteries run for an extended period in low power is like run-flat tires.
You may not be able to go on a high speed pursuit with deflated run-flats but at least you wont end up stranded or possibly spin out of control, strike a tree and get killed.

 

[rapidcharger]

Anyone going into a IDLH environment with a half-empty BA should be put on probation. Same for half-dead batteries. If the user ignores all warnings, you can't fix stupid. ILDH mission critical batteries should live on the charger until needed, and not expected to do double duty for six to ten hours before going into the hot zone. Not a brand-specific issue.

So it's the responder's fault when the battery doesn't hold a charge even when was on the charger until they needed it?

The recurring problem is with 'budget conscious' agencies that fail to replace L-I batteries when they are 36 months old or cycled 1K times.

So it's not the responder's fault???

It sounds like extended talk time could be a life saver in those agencies that fail to replace their batteries.

Also agreed that the radio should scream bloody murder in TX under 6.8VDC instead of just killing the PA.

I have some Icoms that will do that and I heard from another system admin replied in this thread who says Icoms aren't suitable because they should just turn off.
This is precisely why this question was asked of those who are actually using the radios in life threatening situations which setting they would rather have.

An old battery with one weak cell (surface voltage but no amperage) will show fine and dandy in the charger and will walk around silent on a belt all day. But when the user goes into TX the dead-cell voltage suddenly drops the battery to almost dead (shutting off the PA), then mysteriously fixes itself a minute later.

That most often shows when the user says others can hear the first part of his message, then the rad...

I'm talking about a programmable feature, not a defect. It's supposed to do that. Like run-flat tires are supposed to let you limp back to the garage rather than leave you stranded.

 

[box23]

Again, another friendly courtesy reminder that the question wasn't for those who work on the radio admin side of things. The question was for those who use them in the field.

You seem to think you are going to get a different answer from a field user than what has been presented to you by MTS2000des and kayn1n32008. There is a reason they are on the admin side of things, they know their ****.

And yes, I am speaking as a field user.

 

[kayn1n32008]

You seem to think you are going to get a different answer from a field user than what has been presented to you by MTS2000des and kayn1n32008. There is a reason they are on the admin side of things, they know their ****.

And yes, I am speaking as a field user.

Wow. I’m not on the admin side at all. Never have, never will. I just apply some common sense to this crap.

Stuff like this should be common sense. The problem is common sense is far too expensive for the majority of people.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I'm talking about a programmable feature, not a defect. It's supposed to do that. Like run-flat tires are supposed to let you limp back to the garage rather than leave you stranded.

An audible low battery indicator is just that. It’s telling you some very critical information:

Your radio battery is going to die.

If a FF is working on an interior attack and his radio starts to give a low battery alert, his action should be the same as if the IC has ordered the building evacuated. A FF would do the same if his BA started to tell him he is low on air.

An IDLH setting is not the time to have a radio go into a ‘run-flat’ condition and cut its transmit power to keep it operational and ‘limp home’

Ultimately it comes down to training. Training to know the difference between a low battery, power up, channel grant, channel busy, clear TX on an encrypted channel, clear RX on an encrypted channel.

Training to know what to do when you key the radio and you get a start up tone instead of a channel grant tone.

Training to know to tag out/lock out a battery that dies part way through a shift, when it usually lasts an entire shift.

Having an employer that has a properly sized battery that will last an entire shift.

Having an employer that has a proper budget for replacing consumables(batteries, antennas and audio accessories)