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MTS/MCS Is there anything a civilian can do with the MTS2000?

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mmckenna

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If the internet is still up, then I would have no need of these things.

The internet doesn't need to be up to make that work. Gotta think outside the box here.


Encryption is kind of the whole chalupa here. If I didn't want encryption, I would just get some Baofengs and program to the MURS frequencies and be done with it.

You are not going to get "encryption" with old analog radios. Best you'll get will be some cheap voice inversion scrambling, which is really easy to decode.
So that pushes you into the digital realm, which likely isn't going to line up with your budget. Like I said above, you either need to rethink your design, or rethink your budget. Your desires and your bank account are not matching up on this one.
 

clbsquared

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Sounds like you would be better off with an itenerant license for VHF. If that's the case, then you're only looking at spending $250 for the license. Then you can buy some analog handheld radios that offer basic or enhanced privacy.
 

clbsquared

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Well one thing you have to realize is that I wouldn't be using these under normal circumstances. In any situation where I'm actually using them, the FCC no longer exists. So please keep that in mind.
Well, if that's the case, why are you asking your questions here? Just buy a couple used XTS portables and hi jack a local P25 system talkgroup.
 

cmdrwill

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I think the FCC WILL way out last you. But you can save them for parts to fix VHF and UHF MTS2000 radios.
 

mmckenna

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Well one thing you have to realize is that I wouldn't be using these under normal circumstances. In any situation where I'm actually using them, the FCC no longer exists. So please keep that in mind.


Buying radios and then not using them isn't a good plan. I go through this at work all the time. Departments buy "cache" radios for emergencies, and put them on a shelf. When the emergency happens, they pull the radios off the shelf and have no clue what to do with them. The batteries are usually dead, too.
If you want reliable communications, buy something that you'll use frequently. Familiarization with the equipment will give you a higher level of success.

There's a number of ways to achieve what you want and still meet the FCC requirements. From first glance, it almost seems like thumbing your nose at the FCC is your #1 goal. Maybe that's been misread, but I've seen a few people show up on this board that specifically seem to want to ignore the rules. None of us are the radio police, so do whatever you want to do. You've asked questions, they've been answered, but you seem to keep looping back around.

1 square mile isn't hard to cover if you use the right gear. Itinerant frequencies, as mentioned by clbsqured, is a good option. Done right, no one is going to care if you don't have a license, but yes, technically you DO need one. But you need to stick to the itinerants and understand that they are shared frequencies. If you want your own channel, then you do need to do it right. Far too many inexperienced users assume that just because they cannot hear other users that they are not interfering with others. This isn't necessarily the case. Don't go wandering off onto frequencies that are not itinerants and that you are not licensed for. Nothing is going to draw attention to yourself faster than causing interference to public safety users. And it's really easy to do.

Keep your power low. More wattage isn't better. You need what you need to cover your area, no more, no less. Don't fall into the CB'er attitude.

Get some cheap DMR radios with basic encryption. Have them programmed for one or a few of the VHF itinerant frequencies. Understand that some fast food drive throughs use those channels, as do a lot of contractors and businesses, so don't be surprised if you occasionally hear other traffic. Roll with it. It's not your private channel.

Make sure you buy radios that will accept AA alkaline batteries. Rechargeable batteries won't like sitting unused on a shelf for very long. Buy a bunch of alkaline batteries at Home Depot and just swap them out every year.

Make sure you and your neighbors use the radios occasionally so all users are familiar with how they work, where they work, and where they don't work. Inexperienced users are going to do all kinds of stupid things with the radios, so make sure they get that out of their system before stuff hits the fan. Doesn't matter how simple you make the radios, they'll just make a dumber user.

I'm not sure how to make this any simpler for you. You are not the first one to show up with these questions. It's all been hashed out before. The answers are the same. Your approach, your need, your budget, your ultimate goals are not unique. Listen to what others are telling you.
 

thorosaurus

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Buying radios and then not using them isn't a good plan. I go through this at work all the time. Departments buy "cache" radios for emergencies, and put them on a shelf. When the emergency happens, they pull the radios off the shelf and have no clue what to do with them. The batteries are usually dead, too.
If you want reliable communications, buy something that you'll use frequently. Familiarization with the equipment will give you a higher level of success.

There's a number of ways to achieve what you want and still meet the FCC requirements. From first glance, it almost seems like thumbing your nose at the FCC is your #1 goal. Maybe that's been misread, but I've seen a few people show up on this board that specifically seem to want to ignore the rules. None of us are the radio police, so do whatever you want to do. You've asked questions, they've been answered, but you seem to keep looping back around.

1 square mile isn't hard to cover if you use the right gear. Itinerant frequencies, as mentioned by clbsqured, is a good option. Done right, no one is going to care if you don't have a license, but yes, technically you DO need one. But you need to stick to the itinerants and understand that they are shared frequencies. If you want your own channel, then you do need to do it right. Far too many inexperienced users assume that just because they cannot hear other users that they are not interfering with others. This isn't necessarily the case. Don't go wandering off onto frequencies that are not itinerants and that you are not licensed for. Nothing is going to draw attention to yourself faster than causing interference to public safety users. And it's really easy to do.

Keep your power low. More wattage isn't better. You need what you need to cover your area, no more, no less. Don't fall into the CB'er attitude.

Get some cheap DMR radios with basic encryption. Have them programmed for one or a few of the VHF itinerant frequencies. Understand that some fast food drive throughs use those channels, as do a lot of contractors and businesses, so don't be surprised if you occasionally hear other traffic. Roll with it. It's not your private channel.

Make sure you buy radios that will accept AA alkaline batteries. Rechargeable batteries won't like sitting unused on a shelf for very long. Buy a bunch of alkaline batteries at Home Depot and just swap them out every year.

Make sure you and your neighbors use the radios occasionally so all users are familiar with how they work, where they work, and where they don't work. Inexperienced users are going to do all kinds of stupid things with the radios, so make sure they get that out of their system before stuff hits the fan. Doesn't matter how simple you make the radios, they'll just make a dumber user.

I'm not sure how to make this any simpler for you. You are not the first one to show up with these questions. It's all been hashed out before. The answers are the same. Your approach, your need, your budget, your ultimate goals are not unique. Listen to what others are telling you.
What are itinerant frequencies? I tried googling it, but it didn't really come up with any straight answers. But no, traffic on those frequencies wouldn't bother me. In fact, the more the better. If I can blend in with other encrypted users then so much the better.

Also like the idea of staying inside the VHF since I keep hearing it works best in the mountains.

Now as far as the power is concerned, more is better. The immediate vicinity where everyone's houses are is about 1 square mile, but obviously we can get a lot further apart than that if we're out walking around or on quads. Or even driving into town. An example use case would be someone breaking down on the side of the road into town or something like that. So the farther we can get without having to rely on repeaters the better.
 

mmckenna

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What are itinerant frequencies? I tried googling it, but it didn't really come up with any straight answers. But no, traffic on those frequencies wouldn't bother me. In fact, the more the better. If I can blend in with other encrypted users then so much the better.

Also like the idea of staying inside the VHF since I keep hearing it works best in the mountains.


Now as far as the power is concerned, more is better. The immediate vicinity where everyone's houses are is about 1 square mile, but obviously we can get a lot further apart than that if we're out walking around or on quads. Or even driving into town. An example use case would be someone breaking down on the side of the road into town or something like that. So the farther we can get without having to rely on repeaters the better.

Well, you just changed the requirements again….

Running high power on itinerants with encryption is going to get a lot of attention. It's going to annoy a lot of people. Annoyed people complain. Not sure how far "town" is, but depending on terrain, distances, etc. you may have issues. High profile and obscurity, adding in not wanting to follow FCC rules, a low budget, and lack of knowledge is really going to be a problem for you. Not sure how to help you there.
 

thorosaurus

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Well, you just changed the requirements again….

Running high power on itinerants with encryption is going to get a lot of attention. It's going to annoy a lot of people. Annoyed people complain. Not sure how far "town" is, but depending on terrain, distances, etc. you may have issues. High profile and obscurity, adding in not wanting to follow FCC rules, a low budget, and lack of knowledge is really going to be a problem for you. Not sure how to help you there.
This is starting to make more sense now.

Looks like a 6 watt power limit on the itinerant frequencies, which is already more than any of the halfway decent looking handhelds I've seen.

One consideration, too, is that we can keep the power dialed low while practicing, then crank it up if it's an emergency situation.

I'm REALLY liking this idea. Looks like the license is only a few hundred dollars for 10 years, so that's very doable, and I love the idea of staying in the VHF band. Also love the idea of blending in with other legitimate encrypted users. If someone heard our encrypted transmissions in that area, they would probably assume we were logging crews or maybe some type of farm operation. There are some pretty big farm operations in that area, and I wouldn't be surprised if they all have radios. I think it's Tyson chicken that has a lot of farms in that area.
 

mmckenna

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You likely won't hear much encryption on itinerant frequencies. Up until recently most of the pre-programmed low tier radios sold to these types of users were analog only and didn't have means for scrambling or encryption. Most of them were used straight out of the box with no programming, or were programmed by a shop and all the users do is turn them on.

Running encryption may draw attention to what you are doing.
 

thorosaurus

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You likely won't hear much encryption on itinerant frequencies. Up until recently most of the pre-programmed low tier radios sold to these types of users were analog only and didn't have means for scrambling or encryption. Most of them were used straight out of the box with no programming, or were programmed by a shop and all the users do is turn them on.

Running encryption may draw attention to what you are doing.
Well if there's one thing I've learned this morning it's that you can't have everything.

This sounds like a solid plan to me. It keeps me in the VHF, and testing them won't potentially interfere with public safety channels like those police surplus units might.
 

wa8pyr

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Running encryption may draw attention to what you are doing.

That should read ". . .will draw attention to what you are doing." Especially if it causes interference to other users of the frequency.

I'm with mmckenna; get some MURS radios, keep the power as low as practical for the desired communications, and leave it at that. Quick, simple, no license needed. Forget about encryption; some basic communications security practices such as non-specific language, alternate names for certain locations, and randomly changing channels would be secure enough for what you might be doing, and it's free.

Well if there's one thing I've learned this morning it's that you can't have everything.

This sounds like a solid plan to me. It keeps me in the VHF, and testing them won't potentially interfere with public safety channels like those police surplus units might.

Now you're starting to get the idea!
 
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mmckenna

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Well if there's one thing I've learned this morning it's that you can't have everything.

You can, just not on a budget.

This sounds like a solid plan to me. It keeps me in the VHF, and testing them won't potentially interfere with public safety channels like those police surplus units might.

Unfortunately some public agencies are dumb enough to not wipe their radios before surplussing them. Not uncommon to hear of someone buying a used radio that is still fully programmed for an agency and still has encryption keys loaded. It would be funny if it wasn't so stupid.
 

thorosaurus

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That should read ". . .will draw attention to what you are doing." Especially if it causes interference to other users of the frequency.

I'm with mmckenna; get some MURS radios, keep the power as low as practical for the desired communications, and leave it at that. Quick, simple, no license needed.
You speak German? Couldn't help noticing your title.
 

wa8pyr

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You speak German? Couldn't help noticing your title.

Ich habe ein bisschen deutsch.

(ie... only a little, as well as some other languages. I can swear wonderfully in several, ask where the bathroom is, say thank you and you're welcome, and some other basics; probably just enough to get in trouble. I have a bit more German and Spanish than others.)
 

rapidcharger

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Is this sort of like a prepper thing you're trying to do? I must have missed where you outlined the scope of your project. I have long thought 800 mhz would be a better band to operate for activist groups sailing on the high seas since their adversaries probably wouldn't be looking for them there. Until law and order collapses you're better off just getting something else. I have amassed quite a collection of digital radios from ebay that have basic privacy and you can program them easier than the MTS2000 which, from what I hear, is not easy to do on a modern computer running Windows 10. Also 800 mhz is also not a very forgiving band to use with portable radios without the help of base stations and repeaters. I don't really think you're going to be able to do anywhere close to a mile with that in a suburban setting particularly if there's terrain.
 

Giddyuptd

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Only thing those are good for is users wanting surplus parts or working radios on existing analog systems where it will work like overseas. Inland mainly parts for the housing or whatever one needs. Dime a dozen parts over the "oem" but Chinese housing for 50 bucks.
 

Chance

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As mentioned you can pay a frequency coordinator to get a pair of frequencies. I have done it and it was easier than I thought. 800 mhz repeaters are almost given away on the famous auction site for the cost of shipping. $150 and you can have a 100 watt Quantar repeater that use to cost $20K. The repeaters are easy to program. A duplexor can run you as cheap as $75 for a mobile unit. But the proper cabinet mount duplexor will be about $300. Add in antenna and feedline and you are well over a grand.

With that, now you have a use for the MTS2000. They can be had for as cheap as $5 on the famous auction site. There are Chinese refurb kits for $10-13 to make them look brand new. Batteries are plentiful on the famous auction site for about $13. Until recently, I was actually able to buy brand new batteries directly from Motorola for $11 a piece..... But seems they set me up on the wrong discount and I lost it this month when they went to a new system. Now from Motorola it is showing $72 under my contract price, so off to the auction sites from now on.

You may find batches of radios the have the Advanced Security Key set to prevent programming in the CPS software. It is trivial to take off and I have written a program to do so.

All hardware is the same, but various features of the radio are enabled in software by Flash Code options. These radio have a TOOL-PROOFING check to ensure that in-field upgrades were properly paid for and done legitimately. Limited people have the proper equipment to upgrade the features and flash of the radio. I am working to change that. With a $15 USB cable and a modified speaker mic cable, I am able to read and write the Flash memory. And I have figured out how to calculate the correct code or bypass it altogether. (Yes.... Really.. Not making it up... Check the well known Canadian site.)

Even though these are 20+ year old radios, they are built rock solid and were ahead of their time. The only major flaw is the dead pixel issue. If you're a patient and a determined person, you can use a clothing iron to fix the displays. There is not much to go wrong inside. Parts can be easily cannibalized from other radios. Really you should have access to a service monitor or at least a spectrum analyzer to ensure they are properly transmitting.

Bottom line, you are in for a journey. The above is just scraping the surface. I don't want to even begin to confess the amount of hours I have put in. But I am having a blast and these radios for whatever crazy reason hold a special place in my heart... Happy Valentine's Day, MTS2000!

Chance
 

rapidcharger

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As mentioned you can pay a frequency coordinator to get a pair of frequencies. I have done it and it was easier than I thought.

Perhaps you can pay a frequency coordinator for some 800mhz frequencies (and quickly surpass what the OP would have saved on a couple of radios) but you still have to be granted a license and licenses are expensive so whatever you save on equipment you will quickly exceed on licensing fees and in order to get one, you have to be eligible. In other words some sort of commercial activity. I presume you were eligible. The OP's zombie hunting expedition might not be eligible. And it's still a crappy band.
 

Chance

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The answer to the original question is yes.

I think I already know the answer, but I'll ask anyways because they're insanely cheap on Ebay.

They're 800 mhz. Are there any frequencies in that range that I could legally use?

Quantity was not mentioned. 2 or 3 radios, it would be dumb to pay for licensing. 50 radios, there would be a significant savings in re-purposing the old MTS2000 radios.
 
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