Help me understand STARS

[newsleader]

I live and work between two different STARS towers. The one that is listed for my county is a weaker signal where I am One for the next county over is a stronger signal. But if I'm monitoring State Police and others in my county, will I hear that traffic on the next county's tower, or do I need to be listening to the tower for my county?

Using an SDS200.

 

[Mr_Boh]

So it all depends on what towers the officers talking on the radio are using, and that is not something you can easily "see" since some of it depends on the system configuration. If you are finding the site for the next county over is coming in stronger than the one for your county, odds are probably good its that way for the officers patrolling your area too (especially since you are using an SDS200).

This is one of those things that requires some "studying" and may require custom configuration. For example, if after a lot of listening, you find that the officers you want to hear are only on the weaker site, you may have to manually add STARS to a favorites list, but only add that weaker site so the SDS only scans it for activity.

Hopefully that makes sense - it's a "mileage may vary" type of situation here.

 

[fredva]

I think Mr_Boh is correct. One advantage here is that you are listening to the state police on a state system, so county boundaries don't matter as much.

 

[tglendye]

Hi, Newsleader from Staunton. I believe I know where you work -I live in Bridgewater. To receive State Police in Augusta County, I would use the Bear Den tower in Albemarle, which is probably what you are referring to as the next county. It is in such a great location that a lot of units automatically affiliate with that tower. As the others have said, the geography does not matter as much as what towers the units are affiliated with. Since STARS is not made for scanners, the towers do not carry traffic on a particular site if a user is not affiliated with that site. I would probably switch to Elliott if I am on the west side of the county and Bear Den drops out, but I don't know how much traffic Elliott has on it. I would say that Bear Den is your best bet.

 

[newsleader]

Hi, Newsleader from Staunton. I believe I know where you work -I live in Bridgewater. To receive State Police in Augusta County, I would use the Bear Den tower in Albemarle, which is probably what you are referring to as the next county. It is in such a great location that a lot of units automatically affiliate with that tower. As the others have said, the geography does not matter as much as what towers the units are affiliated with. Since STARS is not made for scanners, the towers do not carry traffic on a particular site if a user is not affiliated with that site. I would probably switch to Elliott if I am on the west side of the county and Bear Den drops out, but I don't know how much traffic Elliott has on it. I would say that Bear Den is your best bet.

Yes, you have me pegged, exactly. And those are the two towers I was most interested in. Even with a rooftop antenna in downtown Staunton, I'm not getting much from Elliott Knob, but the the Bear Den is much stronger. I wasn't sure if the same conversations would/should be repeated across both of those towers?

Of course, when I listen to Bear Den, I get all kinds of traffic from Albemarle on there, which I don't need.

Since I'd like this to be a one-size-fits all scanner, I'm also avoiding having too many of the fancier channels like STARS running, slowing the scan down.

Still getting my head around all these new options with the SDS200. So, if I monitor Bear Den, can I someway use talkgroups or the like to only pull in the conversations relevant to my area?

 

[jonwienke]

Site boundaries have nothing to do with jurisdictions. They are based on coverage, which is dictated by topography. You can't assume a talkgroup will only appear on one site.

 

[fredva]

So, if I monitor Bear Den, can I someway use talkgroups or the like to only pull in the conversations relevant to my area?

A STARS talkgroup will typically cover 4-6 counties, so there's no way to limit the state police conversations to a specific county. An exception is northern Virginia, where the population density is higher, so I think one talkgroup there covers 1 or 1 1/2 counties.

This VSP division map shows frequencies that pre-date STARS, but the division boundaries are the same and the areas for the channels are roughly the same as the STARS talkgroups today: VA STARS Division Map and Frequencies - The RadioReference Wiki Augusta County and bordering counties within the Appomattox division would be assigned one of the Appomattox talkgroups. The southern end of the division would be assigned a separate talkgroup.

EDIT: I said 4-6 counties per talkgroup but taking another look, I think it's a little more than that.

 

[tglendye]

...
Since I'd like this to be a one-size-fits all scanner, I'm also avoiding having too many of the fancier channels like STARS running, slowing the scan down.

Still getting my head around all these new options with the SDS200. So, if I monitor Bear Den, can I someway use talkgroups or the like to only pull in the conversations relevant to my area?

Just to double check, you are scanning the STARS system and not just programming the frequencies in from the Bear Den tower and scanning them, are you? The best way to do it is scan STARS via the Bear Den site. Appomattox 2 is the talk group you want- which includes Augusta County. Basically anything under VSP Appomattox that has a "2", you may hear traffic from Augusta Troopers. So, App Tac 2, App Blue 2, etc. Sometimes for events they may go to Appomattox 3, but that can be any county in the division.

And when you are scanning (trunking) the STARS system, the number of talk groups really does not effect the rate of scan. I'm sure this is not very technical, but it seems by programming the "Hold time", you are choosing the amount of time the scanner looks at that system (system's control channel on the site) before moving to the next system or conventional channels that you have programmed other than STARS.

 

[newsleader]

I was doing most of what you said, but the "2" is info I didn't have. Thanks. I knew local troopers were assigned to Appomattox.

Right now I have in the VSP in as a department. Then I have STARS, and in it I have a VSP entry with the talk groups (which I'll narrow as discussed) and an entry that rounds up the Bear Den Mountain Frequencies. Sound about right?

A non-STARS question for you. I have a 20-year-old analog scanner that gets much of our local fire traffic just fine, no codes needed, just wide open frequency monitoring. I have a heck of a time getting even somewhat the same amount of traffic with this fancy SDS200. Is it less sensitive or am I likely set up wrong (which is entirely possible). I based most of my initial entries on the RR database via Sentinel.

 

[jonwienke]

If you manually programmed, the issue is most likely user error. Most commonly forgetting to set/enable the correct service types for each channel.

 

[tglendye]

@newsleader , I sent you a PM with my email address. If you want to send me a file, I'll take a look and see if I can make some changes to help.

 

[W4UVV]

I live and work between two different STARS towers. The one that is listed for my county is a weaker signal where I am One for the next county over is a stronger signal. But if I'm monitoring State Police and others in my county, will I hear that traffic on the next county's tower, or do I need to be listening to the tower for my county?

Using an SDS200.

------------
newsleader,

Understand the STARS radio basics of operation.....All STARS vehicle mounted radios constantly poll for STARS site's tower locations within its' reception range at that moment in time regardless of location and will affiliate, if authorized, with the strongest received STARS site's trs signal. It is a dynamic consistent process. The strongest STARS site's T/R signal at that moment with the mobile is what you will hear.

FYI you can execute PRO96COMM software for a particular STARS site which will provide a comprehensive analysis of that particular STARS site, i.e. "neighbor" sites, etc.

John
W4UVV

 

[K4APR]

I know I'm a bit late to this, but I think a major concept being skipped over is site registration and actively selected talkgroup. Motorola P25 systems with multiple sites are designed to conserve RF resources when they are not needed. If a subscriber unit is registered to a site (any site on STARS) the core has a log of that. The next important thing is the core needs to know what talkgroup the subscriber unit has selected. This is also logged. When a call is active for that particular talkgroup, the core knows to send that call audio to that site and grant use of an RF channel so the subscriber unit can hear the call. If the subscriber switches to a different talkgroup, call audio for any call on that talkgroup will now be sent to the site. If the subscriber roams out of range of the site and there are no other subscribers registered to that site with that talkgroup selected, the core will NOT send audio or grant an RF channel for calls on that that previously active talkgroup. Simply put, if there is no one there to hear the call, there is no reason for an RF channel to be used up for the call.

 

[N4FTN]

What KE4NYV stated is correct...... Let me provide some info from a different perspective. When a mobile radio is turned on it searches for the best tower site signal and "affiliates" with that site or is registered in the system at that site. That mobile radio is tuned to a specific talkgroup; i.e. "Appomattox 2". The mobile radio will hear all of the traffic from Appomattox 2.

The mobile radio while traveling dynamically searches for the best tower site signal and will change to a different site if the signal is better. The same affiliation process occurs seamlessly with the new site and all Appomattox 2 traffic will be carried on the new site.

What's important to understand, is that all of the STARS sites will carry radio traffic from TG's based on the TG selection of mobile/portable radios affiliated with it at any given time. For example, a site in Roanoke that normally has VSP units tuned to Salem 1 and Salem 2 means that traffic for Salem1/Salem2 is carried on the site constantly. But, if a mobile radio affiliated with that same Roanoke site tunes TG "Chesapeake 2", then Chesapeake 2 radio traffic will be carried on that site for the duration of the mobile radio being affiliated with that site and tuned to Chesapeake 2. When that mobile radio (only one on the site tuned to Chesapeake2) is tuned to a different TG then the Chesapeake 2 traffic will cease being broadcast on that site as there are no radios affiliated with the site tuned to Chesapeake 2.

This is why you occasionally hear traffic on a site that is geographically in another part of the site; it seems out of place.

Lastly, there are some talkgroups that can be limited to use only on certain sites limiting this statewide broadcast of radio traffic intended and used in a smaller distinct geographical location, i.e. no reason to be listening to Chesapeake traffic while in Roanoke.

Hope this helps......

 

[midnightsteel]

Whenever I have my scanner in the house, not connected to the gps unit in my car. I can pick up Appomattox 1 and 2 channel traffic on the Dumfries repeater. I assume there are plenty of usable repeaters between Prince William County and Cumberland County. Does this mean that there are units from Appomattox calculated that the Dumfries repeater was the best usable choice?

 

[GmanX]

Some of the frequencies are reused you might be picking up signal from a site that's closer than you think

 

[W4UVV]

Whenever I have my scanner in the house, not connected to the gps unit in my car. I can pick up Appomattox 1 and 2 channel traffic on the Dumfries repeater. I assume there are plenty of usable repeaters between Prince William County and Cumberland County.

----------------
midnightsteel,

Please forgive me for not addressing your subject post yet, but generally speaking, I do not understand why all of the commotion about a subject which basically was explained very easy to most understanding what the terms "AFFILIATION" and "ACCESS" meant in reference to STARS. When the first STARS installation began....and believe you me, STARS did have some actual serious problems, which in my opinion, caused by the responsible personnel not filing applications for sufficient vhf system frequencies for fully new systems installations statewide., etc....Crisis!....Phone call to FCC....FCC approved a letter state of VA. license authorizing a few vhf frequencies.

I first tried to learn the very simple STARS processes. In 2000, I also knew some other monitors were very knowledgeable on the different STARS related subjects. The simplest meanings for me to understand were "AFFILIATION" & "ACCESS". "AFFILIATION" IS FIRST AWAITING A VALID USER COMMAND . IF A VALID COMMAND TO AUTHORIZE "ACCESS" WAS APPROVED(CONFIRMED), THIS SPECIFIC SITE WILL ACCEPT TRANSMIT COMMAND FOR THIS REPEATER ONLY AND HARMONY PREVAILS.

"HOWEVER, IF THE "AFFILIATION" REQUEST BY THE RADIO END USER KEYING THE TRANSMITTER THAT IS NOT (AUTHORIZED) AT THIS PARTICULAR SITE, FRUSTRATION RULES WITH NUMEROUS FUTILE REPEATED ATTEMPTS OF TRANSMITTER COMMANDS NOT AUTHORIZED. THIS RADIO'S END USER WHOMEVER, THEREFORE REASONABLY COULD CONCUR THAT HE/SHE CANNOT USE THIS PARTICULAR STARS' SITE FOR USING THIS SITUATION AS A REPEATER." "ONCE LEARNED...ALWAYS REMEMBERED GOOD OR BAD."

That was all I needed to know the terms of "affiliation" and "access" and their uses at any STARS site(s).

Each STARS' radio installations setup programing entries initially were made via the efforts of the Richmond NOC employees possibly in conjunction with a STARS Tech(s) present for the appropriate talkgroups and were completed well before the STARS radio issued by the NOC for issuance eventually going to the end user. The Roanoke NOC may or may not still exist.

Now as to your question..."Does this mean that there are units from Appomattox calculated that the Dumfries repeater was the best usable choice?" No, it only means the Appomattox 1/2 STARS vehicle probably was in motion and AFFILIATED with the Cumberland STARS site at that exact moment(s) in time. PERIOD! Do not try to make any more logical sense such as following a road map. The dynamics involved can and will change. Weather can and possibly can change. I would be more interested in affiliating with one or more STARS sites within my reception range or a mountain top site. For example, I live in Prince George Co., probably 50 air miles and can receive Leigh Mountain and even Cumberland Co. on early morning inverted atmosphere. I also am 10 air miles from the Waverly STARS site in Sussex Co. Because Waverly installed the same control channel as Fork Union, I get swamped from Waverly. However, if I program the Fork Mtn. voice frequencies, I can hear them...not great but listenable.

The common example given for "AFFILIATION" & "ACCESS" is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel (CBBT). CBBT's STARS site's radio coverage is via Accomack CO., Eastville. Chesapeake and and Williamsburg. These four STARS sites are optimum locations for CBBT operations. There is no comm needed to have an unnecessary out of area reception site. Having said that, occasionally, I have heard a CBBT STARS radio user loud and clear driving on I64 from Chesapeake to Richmond in the clear on a STARS Div. 1 repeater, most likely the Div 1 Rumford site. Why this CBBT employee? Who knows? Perhaps the CBBT employee was an upper level management officer attending a STARS systems meeting in Richmond. He for sure is one STARS user who knew he had "Affiliation" and "Access" to the Div 1 Rumford STARS site and probably acess to other Div 1 central VA STARS sites.

STARS sites now are well covered compared to 10-15 years ago when a requirement for adding 10 more STARS sites over 10 year period located STARS locations west/southwest of Roanoke and some east near Div. 3, one in Bland Co. and one almost the KY/VA state south of Norton in Wise Co. and NC/VA I77 Rest Stop. Those 10 operational STARS sites filled in the poor signals areas across the state.

I have been to Cumberland Co. two times installing Satellite TV systems. I liked the rural county. Please advise VDOT it's ok now to widen the wagon trail to accommodate two motorized vehicles with one each in its' own lane of travel at the same time. I did not have the time locate the CC repeater site. Obviously, if that location was not mountainous there would not be much of an area coverage. But the Cumberland Co. site does have decent elevation coverage and if I can hear the repeater occasionally in Prince George Co., and I do scan for it along with the Leigh Mountain site.


Regards,
John
W4UVV

 

[midnightsteel]

----------------
midnightsteel,

Please forgive me for not addressing your subject post yet, but generally speaking, I do not understand why all of the commotion about a subject which basically was explained very easy to most understanding what the terms "AFFILIATION" and "ACCESS" meant in reference to STARS. When the first STARS installation began....and believe you me, STARS did have some actual serious problems, which in my opinion, caused by the responsible personnel not filing applications for sufficient vhf system frequencies for fully new systems installations statewide., etc....Crisis!....Phone call to FCC....FCC approved a letter state of VA. license authorizing a few vhf frequencies.

I first tried to learn the very simple STARS processes. In 2000, I also knew some other monitors were very knowledgeable on the different STARS related subjects. The simplest meanings for me to understand were "AFFILIATION" & "ACCESS". "AFFILIATION" IS FIRST AWAITING A VALID USER COMMAND . IF A VALID COMMAND TO AUTHORIZE "ACCESS" WAS APPROVED(CONFIRMED), THIS SPECIFIC SITE WILL ACCEPT TRANSMIT COMMAND FOR THIS REPEATER ONLY AND HARMONY PREVAILS.

"HOWEVER, IF THE "AFFILIATION" REQUEST BY THE RADIO END USER KEYING THE TRANSMITTER THAT IS NOT (AUTHORIZED) AT THIS PARTICULAR SITE, FRUSTRATION RULES WITH NUMEROUS FUTILE REPEATED ATTEMPTS OF TRANSMITTER COMMANDS NOT AUTHORIZED. THIS RADIO'S END USER WHOMEVER, THEREFORE REASONABLY COULD CONCUR THAT HE/SHE CANNOT USE THIS PARTICULAR STARS' SITE FOR USING THIS SITUATION AS A REPEATER." "ONCE LEARNED...ALWAYS REMEMBERED GOOD OR BAD."

That was all I needed to know the terms of "affiliation" and "access" and their uses at any STARS site(s).

Each STARS' radio installations setup programing entries initially were made via the efforts of the Richmond NOC employees possibly in conjunction with a STARS Tech(s) present for the appropriate talkgroups and were completed well before the STARS radio issued by the NOC for issuance eventually going to the end user. The Roanoke NOC may or may not still exist.

Now as to your question..."Does this mean that there are units from Appomattox calculated that the Dumfries repeater was the best usable choice?" No, it only means the Appomattox 1/2 STARS vehicle probably was in motion and AFFILIATED with the Cumberland STARS site at that exact moment(s) in time. PERIOD! Do not try to make any more logical sense such as following a road map. The dynamics involved can and will change. Weather can and possibly can change. I would be more interested in affiliating with one or more STARS sites within my reception range or a mountain top site. For example, I live in Prince George Co., probably 50 air miles and can receive Leigh Mountain and even Cumberland Co. on early morning inverted atmosphere. I also am 10 air miles from the Waverly STARS site in Sussex Co. Because Waverly installed the same control channel as Fork Union, I get swamped from Waverly. However, if I program the Fork Mtn. voice frequencies, I can hear them...not great but listenable.

The common example given for "AFFILIATION" & "ACCESS" is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel (CBBT). CBBT's STARS site's radio coverage is via Accomack CO., Eastville. Chesapeake and and Williamsburg. These four STARS sites are optimum locations for CBBT operations. There is no comm needed to have an unnecessary out of area reception site. Having said that, occasionally, I have heard a CBBT STARS radio user loud and clear driving on I64 from Chesapeake to Richmond in the clear on a STARS Div. 1 repeater, most likely the Div 1 Rumford site. Why this CBBT employee? Who knows? Perhaps the CBBT employee was an upper level management officer attending a STARS systems meeting in Richmond. He for sure is one STARS user who knew he had "Affiliation" and "Access" to the Div 1 Rumford STARS site and probably acess to other Div 1 central VA STARS sites.

STARS sites now are well covered compared to 10-15 years ago when a requirement for adding 10 more STARS sites over 10 year period located STARS locations west/southwest of Roanoke and some east near Div. 3, one in Bland Co. and one almost the KY/VA state south of Norton in Wise Co. and NC/VA I77 Rest Stop. Those 10 operational STARS sites filled in the poor signals areas across the state.

I have been to Cumberland Co. two times installing Satellite TV systems. I liked the rural county. Please advise VDOT it's ok now to widen the wagon trail to accommodate two motorized vehicles with one each in its' own lane of travel at the same time. I did not have the time locate the CC repeater site. Obviously, if that location was not mountainous there would not be much of an area coverage. But the Cumberland Co. site does have decent elevation coverage and if I can hear the repeater occasionally in Prince George Co., and I do scan for it along with the Leigh Mountain site.


Regards,
John
W4UVV

Thanks for that. I actually understand it a lot better now