Which of these amps should I get?

[arudlang]

I guess no one cares but I just read that the KL 503 is not legal on any of the ham bands. Don't flame me but if anyone is going to get their ticket it would be a step in the right direction to get certified equipment.

The 503 or the 505? Probably both I suppose 😅

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

You might consider one of these between the antenna and amplifier. It will reduce out of band signals from being received as well as being transmitted. Might keep you from being heard by air traffic control.

https://surgestop.com/filter-products/m-411cb.html

 

[AK9R]

I guess no one cares but I just read that the KL 503 is not legal on any of the ham bands.

For what reason?

 

[n7lrg]

I found a disclaimer on the Copper Electronics site as well a document from the FCC. I know I'll be discredited and or punished for posting this by members who will validate the use of amplifiers and modified HF transceivers exceeding 4w AM/12wSSB but I'm not going to engage any further and be a problem and spoil anyone's fun ok?

 

[arudlang]

Thanks again everyone for all the helpful information. I've been combining that with studying and researching, changing my opinion a little at a time.

Couple important things that have shaken out of this:
1) The KL 505v is probably not going to be suitable or helpful for future ham use, and possibly not legal either if it does not have the proepr FCC blessings. This suggests that scrounging up 35% more cash for a 505v over a 503 is probably not worth it.

2) The gain of any 300w rated amp (like the 503 or the 505v) is not actually super significantly higher than a 100w rated amp. There is a really steep curve of diminishing returns, dollar for dollar and watt for watt, once you get past the first 100 watts.

My research lead to me creating the following chart, which is based on borrowed information and rough math so I'm not saying its scientifically accurate, but its probably accurate "in general":


Figuring out how to spend limited hobby dollars wisely gets a little convoluted because of weird factors like how 88 radio will sell a package of two 203 amps for a discount vs buying one, and they seem to have an additional sale that just comes and goes like DX on the wind, but assuming the best case scenarios I have seen...

A (patient) person can catch the right deal at 88 radio and buy a pair of 100w rated 203P for $69.50 each. Worst case $90 each. Side note, if their additional sale is running I'd say its worth it to spring for the pair of 203Ps but if the sale on the 203Ps is not running then I'd just go with the pair of 203 without the preamp.

Compare those figures with the jump up to a 503 for $210. A $120-$140 increase for maybe not even 1 whole S-Unit increase on the other end. That is not what I call great value. It's a 3-5 DB gain which is not nothing, but its sure hard to justify.

------------------------------

Last night I made a run up the highway to a nearby town 8 miles away to drop off recycling and buy some groceries. I used the errand as an opportunity to do a little experiment. My wife stayed at home on our base station (the 980SSB on the CLR-2), I set the receive gain at about 3/4 and showed her the squelch adjustment. Then I got in my car using a cheap tram 703 (2' mag mount centerload) on my $5 ebay special, a vintage General Electric "Help" 3-5920A radio. I threw it a bone by at least using an external power supply for it rather than using the car 12v, but even still if you know that radio at all... it doesn't get much more spartan and bare bones than that.

Anyways, off I went on my errand. The route is representative of some pretty much worst-case scenarios for interference. Several radio and cell towers, and a whole 'nother town, were between me and the base station by the time I reached my furthest point, 8 miles away.

At 8 miles I could still hear my wife's voice in the static but it was not really understandable. Biggest problem there is she was speaking like a person whispering at church.. It seemed like she could see an increase in static when I tried to reply but she could not discern my voice.

She could pick me up again once I was back within 6 miles and away from buildings and street lights and other interference. At 3 miles we could talk pretty clearly even through I was smack in the middle of a grocery store parking lot in a populated town, and under 2.5 miles static was non-existent.

Most of the local AM stuff (4-5 other stations) that I want to reach consistently are within this 3-6 mile radius of my base, so my takeaway was that throwing 100w 203's into the mix would be a big help, but springing for 300w products would not help much more despite the huge cost increase.

Originally I figured just maxing out what my antenna could do (300w) was worth the extra $$ but the math I found doesn't back that up. Add to that the non-usefulness of the amp investment for anything other than 11m CB, and the 300w products just don't make sense anymore for the money.

Seem like I'm on the right track now or am I off the rails?

 

[mmckenna]

Seem like I'm on the right track now or am I off the rails?

I really like the thought/effort you are putting into this. Nice to see someone do their homework rather than just buying stuff and then showing up here and wanting others to make it work for them. Your approach is much better….

It's been mentioned above, and you sort of touched on it, but you need to address your mobile antenna. Cramming 108" of metal into a 2 foot tall whip isn't doing you any favors. The antenna works both ways: Getting your signal out, and receiving. Putting a 100 or 300 watt amp into a 2 foot tall antenna is probably not going to do much for you. You'd need to decide with how tall an antenna you are comfortable with. Ideally a 108" whip is going to perform better than anything else, but that's a lot of whip for some. A two foot tall antenna is in the opposite direction, the performance will be really poor.

I'd say sink some of your cash into a better mobile antenna before doing much else.

 

[mastr]

...studying and researching, changing my opinion a little at a time...Seem like I'm on the right track now or am I off the rails?

You are getting there. My unasked for advice - (1) realize that there are no "legal" power amplifiers for Citizens Band. (2) spend your money on better radios, antennas, coaxial cable and proper installation of same. (3) teach/ask your wife to speak up, generally a radio can more easily reduce a loud voice than amplify a soft one.

 

[slowmover]

I’ve the 203s, 7405, 7505 & 703. All are nice enough, none are run hard (except the oldest 203).

The only problem with high power on CB are those who continually step on others trying to converse.

There IS NOT a single naysayer about that could pass a strict driving test. Not one. (Hypocrisy is unbecoming)


In 1959 one could “get out “ with 4W mobile. But pretty much not since then.

The money belongs in the antenna system and power system.

Components added to those two systems (radio, amp, etc) can be changed as often as one likes.

(Component details don’t define the radio rig even though we speak about it that way).

 

[KEWB-N1EXA]

I’ve the 203s, 7405, 7505 & 703. All are nice enough, none are run hard (except the oldest 203).

The only problem with high power on CB are those who continually step on others trying to converse.

There IS NOT a single naysayer about that could pass a strict driving test. Not one. (Hypocrisy is unbecoming)


In 1959 one could “get out “ with 4W mobile. But pretty much not since then.

The money belongs in the antenna system and power system.

Components added to those two systems (radio, amp, etc) can be changed as often as one likes.

(Component details don’t define the radio rig even though we speak about it that way).

I agree
Running a Bare Foot Galaxy Saturn and put the money into A Silver rod 5/8 wave on 5 inch Electrical conduit ran hard line all the way from the house...( Got for Free). Hitting Texas and the west coast going left and England ,France and the Azores going right when the conditions are there.
Bought A Turner Plus 3 to drive her on SSB !



Pete N1EXA

 

[arudlang]

Thanks again guys. Good skip rolling today and with some work and patience I was able to converse pretty clearly and for a good long while with a station on Prince Edward Island, a good 1500 mile trip from myself in Minnesota. After so many un-answered CQ DX calls I was so surprised and excited to hear someone answering me I almost couldn't even think of anything to talk about

I also got at least one other callback, I think it was from a station in Bermuda couldn't turn it into a full-blown conversation, too many other radios chiming in and one big station in Jamaica booming over everybody.

After wrapping up talking to the Prince Edward Island station I heard him talk for a while to a station in Wisconsin. Funny thing was I could not really hear the Wisconsin station, only knew it was WI because the Canadian station repeated it. Wisconsin is practically my next-door neighbor in comparison to east Canada, so I guess what I'm learning from that is its less about straight-line distance and more about what the atmosphere is doing, and/or my antenna has some directional preferences, and/or my elevation and location were coming into play.

I'm figuring it out slowly, but either way any day you hear your callsign come back to you making a 1000+ mile trip is a darn good day on the radio!

 

[arudlang]

It's been mentioned above, and you sort of touched on it, but you need to address your mobile antenna. Cramming 108" of metal into a 2 foot tall whip isn't doing you any favors.

Yeah that is just my temporary winter setup because I don't have time or heated garage space to do anything else. I have a better radio and a mid-grade 3 foot fiberglass antenna set aside for my car, I just can't install them in my driveway in the current weather conditions and maybe not until spring, so I threw the mag mount on for now and been using the 3-5920A because its small and easily operable with one-hand. This is just a piece of junk 23 year old honda with 301,000 miles on it so it's not getting anything fancy.

Our 2020 Cherokee on the other hand has a really nice president radio set aside for it and will be getting a nicer and more expensive antenna setup but there again, waiting for warmer weather.

And I guess that's a bit off track, this thread was more about my base station but its all related

 

[n7lrg]

I agree
Running a Bare Foot Galaxy Saturn and put the money into A Silver rod 5/8 wave on 5 inch Electrical conduit ran hard line all the way from the house...( Got for Free). Hitting Texas and the west coast going left and England ,France and the Azores going right when the conditions are there.
Bought A Turner Plus 3 to drive her on SSB !



Pete N1EXA

View attachment 115017

That's a nice looking 5/8ths antenna. I may upgrade from my Sirrio (sp) 1/2 wave..

 

[alcahuete]

My research lead to me creating the following chart, which is based on borrowed information and rough math so I'm not saying its scientifically accurate, but its probably accurate "in general":

The numbers are a little off, but close enough for government work. 4 times the power is 6dB (6.02dB actually). Your numbers are too high.

 

[KEWB-N1EXA]

That's a nice looking 5/8ths antenna. I may upgrade from my Sirrio (sp) 1/2 wave..

Some Big Secrets of the Silver Rod 5/8
*Shim all the joints with some thin Aluminum and use SS Pipe Clamps!
*The First 2 sections have a spine of Steel electrical Pipe with some Electrical tape - Stops the Over bending in the 30-40+ MPH Wind.
*Drill a small weep hole Near the lower Coil to get rid of any Water build up inside And replace the Coil Screw with A SS one the Steel one is junk.

There are no Radials There are 1 foot long elements that do something like Add Capacitance to separate it from the mast...I think~
I'm sure PRC Guy will correct my guess ~

I've had great luck with it- She's tuned for CH38 and she can slide up into those extra Channels the British and French CBs have.

You can Buy an Amp but pumping it into a car antenna is not going to get you out there !

Pete N1EXA Former KQX-9282

 

[arudlang]

After some more thought I ended up ordering a pair of KL 203 units on a package deal that made them under $75 each. Not saying I won't go bigger someday, but starting with the best bang for the buck.

I could have technically got the pair of 203P units with the preamp a fuzz cheaper but I preferred ordering from newegg vs ordering directly from 88radio. Newegg is just the middle-man between me and 88radio but I feel more confident that newegg will give me my money back if the right products don't appear, and I don't like to enter credit card info on blatantly insecure websites (how can 88radio be running an online store and yet not have basic https/SSL ???)

Anyways, those might arrive as early as this weekend so I have high hopes of putting a slight boost in my base station and my main car very soon. I doubt that it will make a world of difference on the DX side but my local contacts who are just at the edge of good range here will appreciate me pulling myself up out of the static level to save their ears a bit.

Thanks for all the input and advice!

 

[slowmover]

After some more thought I ended up ordering a pair of KL 203 units on a package deal that made them under $75 each. Not saying I won't go bigger someday, but starting with the best bang for the buck.

I could have technically got the pair of 203P units with the preamp a fuzz cheaper but I preferred ordering from newegg vs ordering directly from 88radio. Newegg is just the middle-man between me and 88radio but I feel more confident that newegg will give me my money back if the right products don't appear, and I don't like to enter credit card info on blatantly insecure websites (how can 88radio be running an online store and yet not have basic https/SSL ???)

Anyways, those might arrive as early as this weekend so I have high hopes of putting a slight boost in my base station and my main car very soon. I doubt that it will make a world of difference on the DX side but my local contacts who are just at the edge of good range here will appreciate me pulling myself up out of the static level to save their ears a bit.

Thanks for all the input and advice!

Buy ‘em by the dozen!
Use, or leave turned off.

Test install for voltage drop DK.
.5V loss, and no more. (10-AWG a reasonable minimum for a car).

SWR at 1.4:1 (“lower” is better, but typical SWR meters not really accurate).

Radio at 1.5-3W DK (lower better). Can get away with swing to 15, but . . . .

They’re fairly forgiving. Just don’t push luck.

(The -p model not really worth extra expense.
But if it’s what’s available, add to cart).

Other install details notwithstanding, working with another operator re mic choice (plus gain) to find best TX audio will be fruitful. RK56 or A636L the noise-cancel standards).

— WEST MOUNTAIN RADIO DSP CLEARSPEECH is the second half of the equation in, Hear, and Get Heard.

Who can hear you is not as important as whom you can hear.




And a BPF (Bandpass Filter) will help clean up your TX, not just make life easier for the transceiver on RX. (At least two threads on subject are extant).

CB radios are fine & dandy, but it’s the supporting systems which are telling re “performance”. Such as: mobile antennas at least 5’ in length; where total height to 14’ is a given. (Etc).

.

 

[slowmover]

I’ve had a KL-7505v (FCC certified) that tended to shut down quickly. Maybe 1-2/minutes. Didn’t use it much.

Found a suggestion that longer 4-40 screws with hard plastic washers to hold the faceplate away from the unit cures the problem. It does. (Location of heat sensors not correct).

The same will work for the considerably smaller-sized 7405v (also FCC cert).

V-suffix indicates fitted with factory cooling fans.

(Fan is a worthy addition to a KL-203 and it needs heavier power leads as TLC plus a low-pass filter as included in other two. The RM LPF is small in size and works well according to video reviews. A Morgan 411cb BPF, better yet).

I don’t think either amp is any longer sold new past about 2021 after circa 2016 introduction, but it may be worth the gamble if acquired cheaply given the cooling mod. I’d bet most owners shelved them soon after purchase.

The suggestion also included drilling vent holes which I haven’t found necessary (yet).

— Repair tech suitably impressed given low budget:

.

 

[slowmover]

HARRISON FCC- AM/FM transceivers - CB-Radios - Group President Electronics USA

HARRISON FCC - AM/FM transceivers - CB-Radios

www.president-electronics.us

Now that you’ve the 203, an NRC radio is next step.

Re-try your driving test with this (or equivalent) as the mobile.


— FWIW, the Q5/QT60 will nail 30-miles on Sideband mobile to mobile, with ease given a rural area. Sideband is highly desirable.


Am up in your neighborhood at present (Shakopee) waiting for others to clear the roads for me before heading to South Dakota. No early departure incentive today (snowfall).

And, as always this past year, it’s the base stations a number of states away screwing up AM-19.


The original question is valid. Doesn’t take much to get heard based on antenna goodness (assuming not big truck mobile difficulty).

But the extra is still needed locally due to HAM operators intentionally screwing comms nationwide for locals on CB via Skip.

I had no real awareness of Henry, or Messenger, or Tokyo High Power prior to these ass-clowns, just Ameritron.

The ones using Collins are doubly-sure to inform us of same.

.

 

[n7lrg]

To add. No more having to listen to 1000 people talking all over each other with a bunch of noise. Amps are illegal but you know that. Scenario....you have neighbors. Assume one or more are your friends. When that friend comes over and complains that your splatter (since these amps do not have adequate filtering and are poorly constructed) are interfering with their home electronics you then LIE to them saying it's not your doing? Going forward ANY type of interference they encounter will be blamed on you.

 

[slowmover]

Will let you know that occurs. Decades have passed without incident.

Unlike hobbyists for whom radio changes next to nothing in their life, radio does matter in every form of transportation. Air, Sea, River, Rail & Space.

Radio is fantasy camp without a direct bearing on outcomes in life. (Every HAM on-air).

And only freight moved by road has to put up with focused attack on a channel otherwise understood 50-years to be for use of road travelers.

Your call-sign “friends”.

The tables have turned.

.