All encrypted by 2025??

[GlobalNorth]

It isn't going to happen by that year in all 50 states and with all PS agencies.

 

[EastCoastSunrise]

Have to agree, I don’t see it happening. I my area only a hand full of towns are P25, several have upgrades in the works. But they haven’t even been funded yet so I don’t see them getting done by 2025. I think it’s just the APCO asking for money.

 

[EastCoastSunrise]

Not so much anymore. If an agency chooses to go P25, then the new radios have encryption pretty much standard, not at all an extra cost. Not so sure on DMR, or NXDN radios. At least on the "expensive" gear, as my lil ole RD-5R has encryption ability standard and its an under $75.00 radio.

I think he was talking more about moving to P25. I know a bunch of communities around me are still using some real old APX series radios. And as in my state very few local agency’s are on the state wide or even a regional trunk many run their own conventional UHF towers. So each of the hundreds of local communities would have to pay up and convert on their own. Which for many towns is not a priority, it’s hard to sell bunch of 50+ plus year olds on a radio upgrade at a town meeting when potholes are a bigger issue.

 

[scannersnstuff]

Just my thought. With the tenuous future of scanning,especially in the public safety sector, I am happy that I don't have a fortune tied up in radio's. I think the hay day of monitoring has passed us by. I think my next venture may be ham radio, with an intent of going digital. Yes, I know "we can all listen to aircraft,marine,ham etc", but my main interest lies in public safety monitoring.

 

[gmclam]

I've always thought that Project 25 (P25) was to get everyone digitized by 2025, not necessarily encrypted.

 

[UNITYXG]

Most new systems that are coming up under a county or regional multi-site simulcast system are going to go encrypted. These small counties that are joining these new systems are going to go encrypted right off the bat when they switch from VHF Conventional to 700/800 P25.

Its just one of those things. If people wouldnt have burned down buildings, or post live feeds of "whats happening" on facebook and acted like a bunch of whackers, we'd probably still have listening abilities.

 

[GTR8000]

Most new systems that are coming up under a county or regional multi-site simulcast system are going to go encrypted. These small counties that are joining these new systems are going to go encrypted right off the bat when they switch from VHF Conventional to 700/800 P25.

Maybe in your neck of the woods, but that is certainly not universal. A number of brand new systems have come online in my area, and there is very little encryption in use, mostly reserved for sensitive/tactical talkgroups.

As I've stated in other threads throughout the years, what is happening in your area doesn't necessarily apply to everywhere else.

 

[nd5y]

I've always thought that Project 25 (P25) was to get everyone digitized by 2025,

It's just an APCO project number. 25 doesn't reference a year or anything else.

Projects

www.apcointl.org

 

[UNITYXG]

Maybe in your neck of the woods, but that is certainly not universal. A number of brand new systems have come online in my area, and there is very little encryption in use, mostly reserved for sensitive/tactical talkgroups.

As I've stated in other threads throughout the years, what is happening in your area doesn't necessarily apply to everywhere else.

Thats true. I'm really surprised other areas ARENT doing it whenever they come online. I dont say that in a way of "I wish they would", its just surprising. Yes, you are correct, here in the South East most new systems joining multi-site simulcast systems are jumping on the Encryption train.

 

[N5XPM]

I administer a radio system for a private corporation, with fire departments in 56 cities across the United States, and a combination of Motorola Astro and Trbo being connected via Zetron IP interface equipment. Two counties near me are going P25 Phase 2 and encrypted, which meant I had to lay in capable radio equipment as well.

I was tasked as I worked with P25 Phase 2 in the military in 2012-2013. The county plan was to encrypt everything, then just dispatch, now all of it is on hold as they can't even get codeplugs made for all the different users on schedule. What was supposed to be implemented in 2022, is now pushed out to 2023, and seeing the Motorola technicians assisting county radio personnel, it will be 2025 or later.

On my desk, I still have three old school analog only Radio Shack scanners: one Pro-2040 and two Pro-2032's, as well as a Technisonic TL-91-DE aviation radio. There is also a dedicated laptop with a RTL USB stick and an antenna in an office window. Along with SDR# and some plug-ins, I can still monitor P25 Phase 1, and analog comms within about twenty miles. There is still plenty to hear, to include law enforcement, border patrol, vessel traffic, railroad, aircraft. When the counties finally do go encrypted, I may need to upgrade a scanner, but in the meantime, I am not holding my breathe on encryption silencing everything.

Appreciate sharing your observations. The radio systems I designed and operated in the past emphasized simplicity and low cost based on customer priorities. It seems the trend of increasingly complicated radio communications systems is struggling to overcome realities of locating technical personnel needed to implement and operate the systems. Not much point of installing a complicated and expensive system if you can’t use the advanced features for years.

 

[bryan_herbert]

My friend (who's also a sys admin) went to an APCO meeting way back and told me APCO wants most if not all public agencies to go encrypted by 2025. I don't know if this is true but is getting a $500+ scanner still worth it for the future (at least for monitoring local public safety agencies)?

Its not APCO who wants it, its Department of Homeland Security (DHS). To make things worse, theyll help pay the bill for any department to upgrade to P25II w/ encryption.

For now, theyre concentrating on law enforcement. When law enforcement is done then theyll concentrate on fire and EMS. The plan is to leave only interop/mutual aid channels in the clear.

We have a massive statewide EDACS system here in Nevada that houses all the state agencies and DHS is helping to upgrade it to P25II.

Nevada Shared Radio System (P25) Trunking System, Statewide, Nevada

Nevada Shared Radio System (P25) Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

They were supposed to start the upgrade in 2019 but COVID-19 and the supply chain issues delayed it 2+ years. The system is now up and in the testing phase.

 

[EastCoastSunrise]

Its not APCO who wants it, its Department of Homeland Security (DHS). To make things worse, theyll help pay the bill for any department to upgrade to P25II w/ encryption.

For now, theyre concentrating on law enforcement. When law enforcement is done then theyll concentrate on fire and EMS. The plan is to leave only interop/mutual aid channels in the clear.

We have a massive statewide EDACS system here in Nevada that houses all the state agencies and DHS is helping to upgrade it to P25II.

Nevada Shared Radio System (P25) Trunking System, Statewide, Nevada

Nevada Shared Radio System (P25) Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

They were supposed to start the upgrade in 2019 but COVID-19 and the supply chain issues delayed it 2+ years. The system is now up and in the testing phase.

Kind of forgot about DHS being all over encryption. I read there white paper on it, tried to act reasonably when thinking about it, but I feel they went to far. Yes, personal information is sent over the airwaves, yes it does at times hinder public safety's response. I understand why agencies are pro-encryption. Personally I'd love it if it continued to be all out in the open for us to listen too. But at the same time I understand a reasonable need to encrypt SOME radio traffic, such as PD tac channels, or detective ops. Heck I am even fine with officers running licenses on an encrypted channel. But to encrypt everything, I feel is taking it to far. Now in an era of the public having serious concerns about officer conduct. Having access to radios is an important piece of keeping the transparency open. Personally, I see little to no reason to really encrypt FD/EMS ops. Yes your address is put out there, and depending on the agency an amount of information is provided. But at this point with CAD's / MDT's in most trucks anyway I've found the amount of information sent out to be minimal. Same goes for FD ops, if its anything significant, the news media will have coverage of it in a snap. However, I think we are sadly fighting a losing battle. The days of being able to just listen to what ever you want is, and maybe never was a thing. But as technology continues to advance, and agencies seam to be eager to encrypt, I see the days of public safety scanning being such a nation wide, easy to access pass time are maybe heading for the history books. By no means am I saying they are over now, or will be in five years, but I do see an end in sight, all it takes is one mandate to encrypt everything like is done in the UK, and thats the ball game. It is unfortunate that just a few bad apples have ruined the whole bunch, but it is the case. All we can do now is stand up for what we believe in, and what we want to see out of out governments laws.

 

[Go-West]

We have too many uses here that have one issue or others now. Give it time now.

 

[cpetraglia]

My friend (who's also a sys admin) went to an APCO meeting way back and told me APCO wants most if not all public agencies to go encrypted by 2025. I don't know if this is true but is getting a $500+ scanner still worth it for the future (at least for monitoring local public safety agencies)?

Back in 2011 when my county (DC suburbs) switched over to P25, everyone was told encryption was coming within a year or two. They slowly encrypted the tac channels and some other surveillance channels, but main dispatch channels have all remained clear right up until now and none are changing, at least, I hope. That's pretty much the case for all the cities and counties surrounding DC. Only the DC PD right now is encrypted as far as I can tell. And of course, some other LE agencies within DC.

 

[K7MFC]

Depending on where you live, you may very well see encryption by 2025.
Or not.

So, for everyone debating whether or not the hobby is worth it there is your definitive, authoritative answer:

You should sell your radios.
Or not.

 

[GlobalNorth]

..We have a massive statewide EDACS system here in Nevada that houses all the state agencies and DHS is helping to upgrade it to P25II...

Keep in mind that EDACS is no longer supported by the manufacturers that brought it into being - General Electric and those who bought it as part of corporate acquisition - Ericsson and Harris. It was a system from the mid 1980s and has reached a practical EOL.

It also isn't owned by Mother M.

 

[mmckenna]

So, for everyone debating whether or not the hobby is worth it there is your definitive, authoritative answer:

You should sell your radios.
Or not.

And preferably, sell them to me. I'm happy to give penny on the dollar. Or not.

 

[mmckenna]

Keep in mind that EDACS is no longer supported by the manufacturers that brought it into being - General Electric and those who bought it as part of corporate acquisition - Ericsson and Harris. It was a system from the mid 1980s and has reached a practical EOL.

It also isn't owned by Mother M.

EDACS was GE's attempt at APCO Project 16. By some assumptions on this site, it should have gone fully encrypted in 2016 (or was that 1916?)

For the few misguided others...
APCO Project 25 does not require encryption. Encryption is one of the many options on P25, as well as any other radio modulation.
APCO came up with the digital standard.
APCO did not develop AES256. Neither did Motorola.
APCO has no authority to require encryption, neither does Motorola, or your local Motorola dealer.

APCO, Motorola, Harris, Kenwood/EFJohnson, Tait, they are not the boogymen here.

DHS isn't 'requiring encryption'. They require P25 capability for agencies that purchase radios with DHS grant money. That's usually the way grants work.
DHS and others are pushing AES256 for encryption interoperability and for meeting security requirements. That's to keep dumb agencies from trying to use ARC4.

Who requires encryption:
Well, just about everyone, banks, health care, IT, telecommunications, lots of people. Everyone on this site is using encryption. You are using it on the internet, on your phone, in your banking. No one complains.

Who else requires encryption:
Providers of Personal Identifying Information, including Criminal Justice Information. That includes state DOJ's federal DOJ, FBI, military, etc. Ya' know who else is liking encryption? Trunked system administrators, especially on the link layer/control channels, that's to keep the low IQ individuals trying to hack into trunked system "just to listen" from screwing things up for legit public safety professionals.

Anyone that is fully against encryption should feel comfortable posting their own Social Security Number, drivers license number, bank account info, credit card info, name, date of birth, mothers maiden name, dogs name, etc.

And, yes, radio dealers sell encryption because that's how they make money. They also sell radios that may do a digital mode that your scanner may not decode. Cell carriers sell mobile phones with encryption and LTE, both things your consumer scanner cannot decode.

 

[Omega-TI]

I'm fortunate where I live, Police, Sheriff, Fire, Ambulance are all still using conventional analog. The State Patrol and Department of Transportation went to P25 but is so far in the clear. There is one NXDN system, but I'm not going to pay the upgrade (yet) for one small podunk city police force with a population of under 2,500 people.

If they ever do go the way of the Big E, I'll probably lose interest and focus more on one of my other hobbies.

 

[scannersnstuff]

Just my thought. With the tenuous future of scanning,especially in the public safety sector, I am happy that I don't have a fortune tied up in radio's. I think the hay day of monitoring has passed us by. I think my next venture may be ham radio, with an intent of going digital. Yes, I know "we can all listen to aircraft,marine,ham etc", but my main interest lies in public safety monitoring.

Just as a ps - Thru the year's,I have invested thousand's of dollar's into scanner's,receiver'2-way's,amateur gear,pager's,and the like.