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Found an old (Ericsson era) DES keyloader. What model radios is it compatible with?

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ElroyJetson

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A friend passed me some random radios to go through and try to sell some. In this collection I found a new condition Ericsson era DES keyloader, Part number 19A148910P3.

Would anyone happen to have a list of radio types that it might be compatible with?
 

TDR-94

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It would be compatible with the older early mode P7100's, with older Flash and DSP, and earlier radios.

Anything after the older model P7100's, require either the L3HARRIS KeyLoader software, KVL or KFDtool.
 
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TDR-94

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With regards to the P7100's, it would primarily be the earlier revisions that utilized the "G" series Flash.
 

SuitSat

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I'd like to PM you an offer (not sure I can with my post count) because I'm currently trying to restore a well-worn GE M-PD VoiceGuard [that damn cell keeping the tuning will probably drive me insane before I had a chance to do any keyloading though, but that's where the fun is ! (It's a FED-STD 1027 radio so DES)], also I have an M-RK & Prism awaiting some keyfill love for a long time, and will play with a early P7100 soon enough. (Am I sufficiently convincing ? ^^)

Can you please tell me the revision of this IDA box ? I guess 2.1 or 3 as IIRC they were the most common...
Can you also please tell me what would be the shipping cost to France ? [If you agree to ship here of course but please let me just remind everyone that there's no longer an export control on DES ^^ (I still hear that a LOT as a refusal to sell nowadays o_O)]

Thanks !
 

ElroyJetson

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DES V 4.0 Option 1.

PM sent.

Shipping would be via USPS international priority mail, medium flat rate box.

I would not ship an encryption product internationally without verifying for myself that it is legal to do so, by referring to written permission to do so given by the United State Department of State. If DES is no longer export controlled, I have to see it in writing.
 

SuitSat

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Thanks for the PM & answer
v4, me likey !

I would not ship an encryption product internationally without verifying for myself that it is legal to do so, by referring to written permission to do so given by the United State Department of State. If DES is no longer export controlled, I have to see it in writing.
That's the right attitude to have & I agree with that.

IIRC the researches I have done when successfully exporting my T3011DX last year, it all revolve about EAR (Export Administration Regulations).
As it is a quick reply, I don't currently have handy the big pdf file I had done about all the subtilities, but I can summarise with that :

that Gov link is telling us that for symetrical algo : " items with a key length of 56 bits or less are not in 5A002.a. Note that parity bits do not count towards the key length". DES complies with that definition as it is using a keylength equal to 56 bit, not counting parity.

Next is : "In that case, you should review other entries in Category 5 Part 2 and other Categories on the CCL (e.g., Cat. 4 or Cat. 5, Part 1). If it is not described in any other Category then it can be classified as EAR99."

I will not bore you with Cat5Part2 & CCL as I will surely exceed the number of characters allowed to type a message here by doing so, but I did not find specific entries barring DES for export, and you can verify that for yourself by reading these docs online.
(BTW, here is two handy short guides : https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/d.../1652-cat-5-part-2-quick-reference-guide/file & https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/new-encryption/1654-flowchart1/file)
See here for official guidance : Encryption and Export Administration Regulations (EAR)

It results that DES can be classified as EAR99 in todays world (it's no longer the 80's) meaning that : " EAR99. The majority of commercial products are designated EAR99 and generally will not require a license to be exported or reexported " ("generally", because there's still restrictions with embargoed or sanctioned countries, etc... see here : Sanctioned Destinations)
To the best of my knowledge, France is not currently embargoed or sanctioned by the US of A... Feel free to correct me otherwise o_O ...


By the way, Fed-std 1027 & FIPS 46-2 are both depreciated...
Hell, you could probably even argue that nowadays Rijndael is not subject to a special licence because : " Encryption items that are publicly available as further described below are not subject to the Export Administration Regulation. Sections 734.3(b)(3) and 734.7 define what is publicly available and published. Common examples are free apps posted online or mass market software available as a free download. "
(1. Encryption items NOT Subject to the EAR)

DES has been cracked since 1997 (DES was developped in 1975-77 !), nowadays only collectors and tinkerers are seriously interested in toying with DES...
Else you have a serious security problem !

As I like to be punctillious, we just (very briefly) saw the EXPORT control side, now let's see the import control (after all, France has its own laws too...)
Well , DES is no longer IMPORT controlled here, since the 2004 LCEN law, modified by several (2007 & 2015) decrees...
(sorry, I will not translate that as translation is said to distort the law and so only the French version is allowed to legally prevail when talking about French laws, I guess it surely the same for US laws ? You can still try Google Translate but good luck with that...)

So, as you can see, it's ok to export DES from the USA and import it to France ;-)
We are no longer in the 80's, and we are not talking about TEA2, SAVILLE or EINRIDE here =P
Nevertheless, although my answer can sounds a bit "smirky", you did the right thing by asking to see this in writing and I commend you for that.
Sorry if that answer isn't "formatted" like a real law text would be, but it would have been MUCH longer ^^ (hence why I made a pdf for exactly this purpose, but I don't have it here -_-)
I think the main thing is there, but don't hesitate to ask if you want more...
 

SuitSat

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[ElroyJetson, my #7 post is still not visible, this is post #8 and a rethorical self-reply to my previous post which contains all the data, so don't get puzzled if you see only this for now ^^..]

BTW, If I ever wanted to be, (what do you say in English ? Quizzical) ? Snarky but in a good way ?
I would probably argue, just for constructive debate's sake that this particular keyloader (having seen it in action) do not include the DES routine in its inner working and so could not be classified like a encrypted radio. It merely possess some "glue logic/µP" to seed the registers needed to set the key in a DES radio...

This in direct opposition with old Motorola KVL like the 3011 which have an internal crypto hybrid necessary to generate the correct encrypted CVSD "beep" to verify correct keyloading in the unidirectional protocol of early Securenet ;-)
The 3011, having the DES routine, falls into the same category that an encrypted radio.

To the best of my knowledge, this is not true for GE KVL as they do not work the same way... (Mind you, I have not reverse-engineered one !)

This is purely for the sake/pleasure of rhetorical debate, because I guess that laws are made just so that a KVL should automatically assume the same classification as the algorithm it is designed to load, to simplify the Crypto-custodian's workload and headaches ^^

(for gross comparison, a bit like a CCI will assume the classification of the key it is loaded with...)
 

SuitSat

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While I fully understand your stance, me think the Bureau of Industry and Security of the US Department of Commerce is reputable/official enough when speaking about federal law...
but feel free to call them, DoS, NIST or whatever float your boat... Better safe than sorry after all ;-)

I can't do much more to convince you, & I won't hire a lawyer to convince you more by quoting text law, as it would not be a solution, let's say, very logical from an economic point of view...
 

SuitSat

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More than one week later, and I'm still awaiting an answer...
I gave you all the infos you requested, and nothing here or in my inbox -_-

Seems they were right in that other forum, you're just another timewaster...
 

ElroyJetson

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As for that ...other forum...crack, I'm only somewhat active in one other forum and I'm certainly not wasting anybody's time there. Seems like nobody's grumpy at me but you. And I warned you earlier that I'm not willing to take any risks regarding violation federal laws. That was meant to be a POLITE way of saying no without saying no. Clearly you were a bit too dense to get the message.
 
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