Closed repeater and station id

[Delivers1234]

So I’m thinking of getting a repeater ie midland or wouxun. I read that if gmrs is only family giving I’d when they speak no 15 minute Id is needed. So if a random person uses it would I still be liable for the station Id since they won’t Id my station?

 

[prcguy]

The way I understand the rules is if your repeater is a closed system only used by your family and all under the same license, the repeater does not have to automatically ID itself because its owned and operated solely by the single licensee. If you let anyone else use your repeater with a different GMRS license, then your repeater must have an automatic ID with your callsign and you would be liable for any problems, just as the person causing the problem.

 

[Hans13]

ETA: Delivers1234, when you say random person... do you mean a person with your permission to use the repeater or someone who has not aquired your permission? In the former situation, you would have some responsibility. In the latter, you would not since they did not have your permission.

prcguy is correct.

47 CFR § 95.1751 - GMRS station identification.

§ 95.1751 GMRS station identification.

Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the end of transmissions and at periodic intervals during transmissions except as provided in paragraph ( c ) of this section. A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification.

( a ) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted:

(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and,

(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.

( b ) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone.

( c ) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if:

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and,

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.

 

[Delivers1234]

Thank you. I meant if a random person who I did not give permission used it.

 

[prcguy]

All GMRS repeaters typically get keyed up by curious people you don't know. You might even get some malicious jamming, its just part of owning a repeater. You will need a way to disable the repeater if jamming or unauthorized use becomes a problem.

Thank you. I meant if a random person who I did not give permission used it.

 

[Delivers1234]

I would just unplug it or change the tone. I guess if I get a repeater with it tuned to o e channel and someone jams it etc it would suck.

 

[mass-man]

It would suck, but unless it was a real whacko or someone you really pissed off, those kind of jerks do it for a bit and then move one...just don't engage them or even acknowledge they exist! I speak from experience!!!! It did take almost a week for the fellow to pack up his radio and move one

 

[62Truck]

I would just unplug it or change the tone. I guess if I get a repeater with it tuned to o e channel and someone jams it etc it would suck.

This is why some owners will run split PL. I know of some who have used DPL on the input and PL on the output. Its not an end all or be all solution.

There was someone in the NYC area that was having issues with malicious/unauthorized users, he was toying around the idea of putting an LTR controller on his repeater.

 

[prcguy]

Split DPL is nice, takes a lot longer for someone to find your input tone unless they have a radio that can scan tones and they are close enough to hear the repeater input.

This is why some owners will run split PL. I know of some who have used DPL on the input and PL on the output. Its not an end all or be all solution.

There was someone in the NYC area that was having issues with malicious/unauthorized users, he was toying around the idea of putting an LTR controller on his repeater.

 

[Peter_SD911]

What if I have an "open to all" repeater with NO CW ID and I allow and promote the repeater as a cross border USA/Mexico GMRS system?

Like that one on 675 pl 118.8 on Mt. Otay in San Diego? Yup...those Bozo's finally added a transmit tone.

Note to Socal GMRS users...
The unauthorized "users" in Mexico WILL "Roll" any repeater they can, in under 30 minutes...and then they will take it over...or "adopt it" for use. There is really no "closed" repeaters anymore in Socal unless it's a small localized system with little coverage. Don't expect "privacy" with a "high-side" repeater.
A split pl or dpl will be picked-off in no time. It's just a matter of how much time you have to roll it.

 

[therealjlh]

For the record having your Repeater ID with CW is pointless, while most commercial repeater hardware has the ability to automatically ID with CW. there is NO requirement for them to do so with GMRS.

 

[sallen07]

For the record having your Repeater ID with CW is pointless, while most commercial repeater hardware has the ability to automatically ID with CW. there is NO requirement for them to do so with GMRS.

Oh really. Then why is this in Part 95E? Note paragragh (c) where it gives the conditions (and, not or) when a GMRS repeater does NOT need to ID. In other words, if the repeater doesn't meet (1) and (2), then it DOES have to ID.

§ 95.1751 GMRS station identification.

Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the end of transmissions and at periodic intervals during transmissions except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification.


(a) The GMRS station call sign must be transmitted:

(1) Following a single transmission or a series of transmissions; and,
(2) After 15 minutes and at least once every 15 minutes thereafter during a series of transmissions lasting more than 15 minutes.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted using voice in the English language or international Morse code telegraphy using an audible tone.

(c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if:

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and,
(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section.

 

[bharvey2]

(c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if:

(1) It (The GMRS repeater station) retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority (Does authority= permission or does authority = control?) of the individual license under which it operates; and,

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section. (If the GMRS station who are being retransmitted ARE NOT identifying properly, aren't they out of compliance?)


I've questioned the need for GMRS repeaters to auto-ID for the reasons mentioned above in red. I'm not completely convinced that they do based only on 95.1751. But, for CYA purposes, I don't thing there's harm in it. I'm sure others have "passionate" opinions on the matter.

 

[sallen07]

@bharvey2 your post was a bit hard to read (at least for me); some of it is black on a dark gray background.

Authority means "under that license". Not, "I gave you permission to use my repeater" but "You are a member of my family operating under my license".

I'm not sure how your question about (2) negates the need for a repeater to ID. It says that persons operating on a family repeater (which doesn't need an ID as long as 1 and 2 are met) DO have to ID. In other words, you cannot set up a GMRS repeater for your family to use and not have any ID at all (either by the repeater or by the users).

95.1751 states that GMRS "stations" MUST identify. (Stations include not only people talking on radios but also repeaters.) It then outlines the conditions under which a repeater does not have to ID ... in other words, unless those conditions are met, it DOES.

Am I "passionate" about this? Nah. I don't have a GMRS repeater, and don't ever intend to set one up, although I do use a couple. If I did set up a repeater, you can bet that it would ID as required by the rules.

My favorite new saying is, "There's what the FCC rules say, then there's what some people THINK the rules say, and finally there's what people think the rules SHOULD say." The rules say that repeaters need to ID except under certain narrow conditions.

 

[prcguy]

For #1 authority would include permission and control. A licensee would have their own repeater which they use under their license and its under their control. For a licensee using their personal repeater under their license, a repeater automatic ID would suffice for anyone operating under their license (immediate family). If they allow others to use the repeater, the automatic ID would identify the repeater owner and the individual users would then use their own callsign.

(c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if:

(1) It (The GMRS repeater station) retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority (Does authority= permission or does authority = control?) of the individual license under which it operates; and,

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section. (If the GMRS station who are being retransmitted ARE NOT identifying properly, aren't they out of compliance?)


I've questioned the need for GMRS repeaters to auto-ID for the reasons mentioned above in red. I'm not completely convinced that they do based only on 95.1751. But, for CYA purposes, I don't thing there's harm in it. I'm sure others have "passionate" opinions on the matter.

 

[bharvey2]

For #1 authority would include permission and control. A licensee would have their own repeater which they use under their license and its under their control. For a licensee using their personal repeater under their license, a repeater automatic ID would suffice for anyone operating under their license (immediate family). If they allow others to use the repeater, the automatic ID would identify the repeater owner and the individual users would then use their own callsign.

Using that definition of authority, that might make a little more sense.

 

[mmckenna]

For #1 authority would include permission and control.

What about possession and custody?

 

[mmckenna]

So I’m thinking of getting a repeater ie midland or wouxun. I read that if gmrs is only family giving I’d when they speak no 15 minute Id is needed. So if a random person uses it would I still be liable for the station Id since they won’t Id my station?

Is there a reason you don't want to run CWID on the repeater?

While it isn't required in some instances, there are good reasons to run it:
- GMRS has no formal repeater coordination. There are only 8 repeater pairs. You are in range of a number of active GMRS repeaters. Making your system known wouldn't be a bad idea. Transmitting CWID would let others know that you have a repeater on that frequency, and a way to contact you if needed.

- It covers all those "what if" situations.

- If something goes wrong with your repeater, it gives a way for someone to identify the owner.


You don't need to blast out an ID every 15 minutes if it's not being used. It's good to have it do it every 15 minutes when in use. Wouldn't hurt to have it toss out the ID every hour or two just to let others know it is there, but that's up to you.

Other option so people know it's there is to list it over on the MyGMRS page. You can list it as a 'closed' repeater, but again, it lets others know you are there and to not stomp on you with the same PL tone.



On the "bad reasons to run it" topic:

- It gets annoying if all the GMRS repeaters are tossing out their ID every 10-15 minutes when not being used. That just adds to the noise level.

- If you are running on battery/solar and you want to keep power consumption low, turning it off can be a benefit (a minor one, but a benefit)

 

[bharvey2]

@bharvey2 your post was a bit hard to read (at least for me); some of it is black on a dark gray background.

Authority means "under that license". Not, "I gave you permission to use my repeater" but "You are a member of my family operating under my license".

I'm not sure how your question about (2) negates the need for a repeater to ID. It says that persons operating on a family repeater (which doesn't need an ID as long as 1 and 2 are met) DO have to ID. In other words, you cannot set up a GMRS repeater for your family to use and not have any ID at all (either by the repeater or by the users).

95.1751 states that GMRS "stations" MUST identify. (Stations include not only people talking on radios but also repeaters.) It then outlines the conditions under which a repeater does not have to ID ... in other words, unless those conditions are met, it DOES.

Am I "passionate" about this? Nah. I don't have a GMRS repeater, and don't ever intend to set one up, although I do use a couple. If I did set up a repeater, you can bet that it would ID as required by the rules.

My favorite new saying is, "There's what the FCC rules say, then there's what some people THINK the rules say, and finally there's what people think the rules SHOULD say." The rules say that repeaters need to ID except under certain narrow conditions.

Not sure why my previous post was hard to read. In my browser, the original text was black, standard print and my comment was red, italicized print.

With regard to a GMRS repeater not needing to ID, it's only because the FCC carved out an exception for it in (c). My questioning its meaning results only because of their meaning of "authority". There isn't any mention of it it 95.303 Definitions, hence the two options I provided. Otherwise, in my mind, it's transmitting so it needs to identify.

Our GMRS repeater use is similar: periodic use but no ownership so I have no skin in the game either. And, I wasn't calling you out with my "passionate" comment. There have been a number of conversations on this forum regarding what the FCC rules do or don't say. More often than not, the "passionate" comes from those who have never once researched the text of Part 95 (or 90 or 80, 87, etc) nor where to find it.



Regarding your favorite new saying: I'm in full agreement.

 

[Delivers1234]

So I ask because I’m thinking of the Wouxun 1000 for repeaters and wonder it a automatic Id is available?