Mobile Toll Transponders

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dawn

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2003
Messages
284
Location
Pinecrest,Fl
I didn't want to post this to the wireless/everything else forum for the reason that will soon be apparent so bear with me.

We have an early model toll transponder that takes batteries rather then the current crop of passive RFID units. This one will beep and the led will show positive confirmation of interrogation when passing a toll point. It will also signal for low batteries. This made before the now common adhesive type that prevents you from moving it from vehicle to vehicle and uses suction cups.

Over the years we've had it, it's remained silent except for two toll roads we seldom use. Now every so often we get a green light and beep driving around. Checking the website account, there is no valid entry for a toll deduction from the balance that day. Only when we use the two expressways.

So the question I'm asking is are they starting to use these devices as trackers or use them to determine traffic pattern statistics? This would be an important issue as most all the ones on the road are totally passive and you have no idea if they've been interrogated or not. Only the few very early adopters purchased the active units, so most people would have no knowledge of being interrogated.

The unique id is specific now to the VIN/License Plate/Owner/and make of vehicle. The reasoning is if you have an account on file and the transponder doesn't work, the photo can be matched up to a valid account and normal deduction occur rather then paying a mail fee.

The other possiblility is that they are using these beyond the scope of their intended use to gather user habits and create databases of users travels or some other reason.

It's only happened a few times, so I doubt it's falsing after all these years or any major data collection is going on....yet.

Since most all of these devices in use today are the newer passive ones, it might be assumed that few older ones are around and this can be a new means of tracking vehicles. Especially now that the new ones are designed with a permanant adhesive for use in only one vehicle and will be destroyed if you try to remove one.

I've never heard of any discussion about this and it definitely would be related to direction finding and vehicle location.
 

902

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Messages
2,620
Location
Downsouthsomewhere
When you're in that area, look around for panel antennas on top of poles or hanging near traffic lights oriented toward your traffic lane. I see quite a few out where I am, but don't get any indications from my toll transponders (I have one for the southeast and another for the northeast).

About 20 years ago when toll transponders were emerging, I am of the impression that some traffic management centers along Interstates would sample the data, anonymize it and use it to determine traffic patterns and real-time speeds by calculating the delta between waypoints. The use is even more widespread now.

Intelligent transportation system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The article specifically states that E-Z Pass transponders are polled to determine patterns, this is a picture of exactly that.

One thing about that - someday someone might make that connection that, hey, under lawful conditions, getting from point A to point B takes C minutes. You did it in D, which is much faster. Your speeding ticket is attached to the text message. Just enter your credit card number or PayPal to pay it.
 

w9xxx

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
90
Location
West Valley City, Utah
Oakland- San Jose , Los Angeles and Denver areas all do this for highway speed and density and don't try to hide the antennas. The 5 in Oregon has many visible antennas also but I'm not sure which RFID passes they are polling.
 

kg4icg

Crazy Trucking Mechanic
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 28, 2003
Messages
411
Location
Woodbridge, Va
If you see some set up near weigh stations that you may pass on your commute, those are for PrePass, which is part of the commercial truck weight clearance program, which does have ezpass part of it to for tolls. Those transponders have green and red indicators in them to let drivers know if they are good to bypass the scales after weigh in motion.
 

krokus

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
5,964
Location
Southeastern Michigan
One thing about that - someday someone might make that connection that, hey, under lawful conditions, getting from point A to point B takes C minutes. You did it in D, which is much faster. Your speeding ticket is attached to the text message. Just enter your credit card number or PayPal to pay it.

Some areas have been doing so, reportedly. Acquaintances have told me about the citations they have received, with the calculations shown in the notes.

Sent via Tapatalk
 

chief21

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
1,798
Location
Summer - Western NC; Winter - Tampa Bay FL
To the OP -

If your're talking about a SunPass transponder, I think that the state is attempting to phase out the older battery-powered models. Perhaps there is a technical reason why they would like to get the older ones out of common usage. There was / is a program that allows one to "trade-in" an old-style transponder for one of the newer ones. You should be able to check the SunPass web site to see if the swap is still in effect.
 

rapidcharger

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
2,382
Location
The land of broken calculators.
I can confirm they would switch your old sunpass transponder (the kind that uses batteries and beeps) with the kind that doesn't do either at no charge. Of course this post is couple months old. I'm sure the OP called up and got their new sunpass by now.
 

K4NNW

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
169
Location
Bent Mountain, VA
If you see some set up near weigh stations that you may pass on your commute, those are for PrePass, which is part of the commercial truck weight clearance program, which does have ezpass part of it to for tolls. Those transponders have green and red indicators in them to let drivers know if they are good to bypass the scales after weigh in motion.

This is correct. That would be PrePass+ (as in, PrePass+EZPass). As for the cops using toll transponder information to bust folks for speeding, I've not heard of that. I have, however, heard truck drivers getting pulled into the scales due to potential DOT Hours of Service violations (driving too many hours in a day), simply because of distance and time between PrePass stations.
 

Quickcall

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
332
Location
Central New York
The company I work for has received citations for going over the allowed speed at a toll both using the transponder. Not sure exactly what the correct criteria is for that.
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
14,360
Location
Taxachusetts
Yes, Speed Limits thru Toll Booths does get enforced :eek:
Generally 5-25 Mph (It varies by State and is Posted)

Do you speed through E-ZPass booths? Going too fast may get your account suspended. | NJ.com

E-Z Grousing On Speed Limit In Toll Plazas - NYTimes.com

Only the Open Road Tolling allows the Full (POSTED) Speed limits
Violation Enforcement - New York State Thruway


The company I work for has received citations for going over the allowed speed at a toll both using the transponder. Not sure exactly what the correct criteria is for that.
 

902

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2003
Messages
2,620
Location
Downsouthsomewhere
Yes, Speed Limits thru Toll Booths does get enforced :eek:
Generally 5-25 Mph (It varies by State and is Posted)
That's why it's better for people who have toll transponders to use the through lanes that bypass the toll plazas, if they have them. I like the Garden State Parkway E-Z Pass setup where you can go around the plaza if you've got one.

In a past life before cellular was popular and texting was not yet available, I used to repair various electronics and cameras at toll plazas and in other places along the roadway alongside traffic. People would go barreling past us and I always had this feeling that one day some head-up-behind driver would take me or the guys I was working with out. Now with texting, it's got to be worse. Good for the jurisdiction sending out citations!
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
6,859
I didn't want to post this to the wireless/everything else forum for the reason that will soon be apparent so bear with me.

We have an early model toll transponder that takes batteries rather then the current crop of passive RFID units. This one will beep and the led will show positive confirmation of interrogation when passing a toll point. It will also signal for low batteries. This made before the now common adhesive type that prevents you from moving it from vehicle to vehicle and uses suction cups.

Over the years we've had it, it's remained silent except for two toll roads we seldom use. Now every so often we get a green light and beep driving around. Checking the website account, there is no valid entry for a toll deduction from the balance that day. Only when we use the two expressways.

So the question I'm asking is are they starting to use these devices as trackers or use them to determine traffic pattern statistics? This would be an important issue as most all the ones on the road are totally passive and you have no idea if they've been interrogated or not. Only the few very early adopters purchased the active units, so most people would have no knowledge of being interrogated.

The unique id is specific now to the VIN/License Plate/Owner/and make of vehicle. The reasoning is if you have an account on file and the transponder doesn't work, the photo can be matched up to a valid account and normal deduction occur rather then paying a mail fee.

The other possiblility is that they are using these beyond the scope of their intended use to gather user habits and create databases of users travels or some other reason.

It's only happened a few times, so I doubt it's falsing after all these years or any major data collection is going on....yet.

Since most all of these devices in use today are the newer passive ones, it might be assumed that few older ones are around and this can be a new means of tracking vehicles. Especially now that the new ones are designed with a permanant adhesive for use in only one vehicle and will be destroyed if you try to remove one.

I've never heard of any discussion about this and it definitely would be related to direction finding and vehicle location.

I live in Florida, and indeed the FDOT is tracking traffic on surface roads using transponders. They are not being very forthcoming about this or what plans they have. The rumors include charging tolls on certain surface roads during peak periods, to the usual Big Brother implications. I am now saddened that I destroyed and threw away my old battery transponder as I can see it might have interesting application in locating the areas where interrogators exist.

When you go through a toll, the toll reader interrogates the transponder on a specific frequency which wakes it up. Then a second frequency transmits a CW signal that floods the transponder tag. The transponder tag emits a modulated back scatter signal which is comprised of the CW signal mixed with modulation imparted on the antenna element. The toll reader uses a homodyne receiver to demodulate the ID of your tag. The old tags had features to indicate low balance which sadly the new ones do not..
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
6,859
That's why it's better for people who have toll transponders to use the through lanes that bypass the toll plazas, if they have them. I like the Garden State Parkway E-Z Pass setup where you can go around the plaza if you've got one.

In a past life before cellular was popular and texting was not yet available, I used to repair various electronics and cameras at toll plazas and in other places along the roadway alongside traffic. People would go barreling past us and I always had this feeling that one day some head-up-behind driver would take me or the guys I was working with out. Now with texting, it's got to be worse. Good for the jurisdiction sending out citations!

I would not like to have the job of collecting tolls in those booths
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
6,859
Some areas have been doing so, reportedly. Acquaintances have told me about the citations they have received, with the calculations shown in the notes.

Sent via Tapatalk

I would use the worm hole defense.
 

ecps92

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
14,360
Location
Taxachusetts
Not everyone has Open Tolling yet.

Plenty of areas that still maintain the Traditional Tool Booth Plaza

In Massachusetts they ONLY just went with Open Tolling on the Mystic Tobin Bridge, the Mass Turnpike and the Harbor Tunnels are still traditional Toll Plazas

That's why it's better for people who have toll transponders to use the through lanes that bypass the toll plazas, if they have them. I like the Garden State Parkway E-Z Pass setup where you can go around the plaza if you've got one.

In a past life before cellular was popular and texting was not yet available, I used to repair various electronics and cameras at toll plazas and in other places along the roadway alongside traffic. People would go barreling past us and I always had this feeling that one day some head-up-behind driver would take me or the guys I was working with out. Now with texting, it's got to be worse. Good for the jurisdiction sending out citations!
 

WX4JCW

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
3,403
Location
Stow, Ohio
From left to right
OK/KS transponder
Florida transponder
The big blue one is Prepass +
uploadfromtaptalk1461932653676.jpg

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

KD0TAZ

Member
Feed Provider
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
334
Location
Kansas
Not everyone has Open Tolling yet.

Plenty of areas that still maintain the Traditional Tool Booth Plaza

In Massachusetts they ONLY just went with Open Tolling on the Mystic Tobin Bridge, the Mass Turnpike and the Harbor Tunnels are still traditional Toll Plazas

Just in the past few days KDOT is talking about switching to ORT after a semi smashed into a Turnpike toll plaza at speed. I grew up in NJ and I love the EZ-Pass express lanes on the Parkway and PA Pike that you can run through at 55mph. It's always irked me that the I-70 and I-135 ends of the Kansas Turnpike have "K-Tag Only" lanes that bypass the booths, but you still have to basically stop for the gate. But I think some of the traditional slow-down or gated tolls are being kept on certain bridges/tunnels for strategic reasons to reduce the amount of standing traffic on/in them. Bridges have to hold the static weight of bumper-to-bumper traffic, which could become a problem as they age, and tunnels have to deal with the increased air circulation demands to get fresh air in and exhaust gasses from the vehicles out (stop-and-go traffic puts out a lot more emissions than steady flow).

And I can't find it at the moment but there was a video on Youtube where a guy took apart an older EZ-Pass transponder and hacked in an LED and beeper so he could tell whenever it was being read.. It was getting hit all over the city.
 
Last edited:

dave3825

* * * * * * * * * * * *
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 17, 2003
Messages
7,442
Location
Suffolk County NY
Just in the past few days KDOT is talking about switching to ORT after a semi smashed into a Turnpike toll plaza at speed. I grew up in NJ and I love the EZ-Pass express lanes on the Parkway and PA Pike that you can run through at 55mph. It's always irked me that the I-70 and I-135 ends of the Kansas Turnpike have "K-Tag Only" lanes that bypass the booths, but you still have to basically stop for the gate. But I think some of the traditional slow-down or gated tolls are being kept on certain bridges/tunnels for strategic reasons to reduce the amount of standing traffic on/in them. Bridges have to hold the static weight of bumper-to-bumper traffic, which could become a problem as they age, and tunnels have to deal with the increased air circulation demands to get fresh air in and exhaust gasses from the vehicles out (stop-and-go traffic puts out a lot more emissions than steady flow).

And I can't find it at the moment but there was a video on Youtube where a guy took apart an older EZ-Pass transponder and hacked in an LED and beeper so he could tell whenever it was being read.. It was getting hit all over the city.


Was it this one?
Hack Your E-ZPass So It Alerts You Whenever It's Scanned | Popular Science

On Long Island, they scan ez passes to give an eta to a major road.
RFID Provides ETAs to N.Y. Drivers RFID Provides ETAs to N.Y. Drivers - RFID Journal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpq1uGk5QgE





.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top