Harassment for photography: not just for railfans

[wwhitby]

I read this on Trains magazine's Newswire today
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Harassment for photography: not just for railfans http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/006/373srljt.asp
Copyright © 2005 Kalmbach Publishing Co. All rights reserved.


TORRANCE, Calif. - A Redondo Beach, Calif., man has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the Torrance police, contending officers detained and fingerprinted him, took his picture and asked if he was a terrorist after he took photos of the ExxonMobil refinery there, according to a Copley News Service story in the Daily Breeze newspaper.
Torrance is 20 miles south of downtown Los Angeles.

In a lawsuit filed Dec. 14, Jim McKinniss says that at 4:25 a.m. on April 17 he was taking photographs from the sidewalk on Prairie Avenue of the refinery's fiery smokestacks as part of an assignment for a course he was taking at Otis College of Art.

The suit states McKinniss saw a security guard from the plant arrive in a vehicle, and seven minutes later two Torrance police cars arrived with their lights flashing. Four officers, not named in the lawsuit, approached him.

He reportedly told officers he was on public property and he did not think it was illegal to take photographs.

"One of the officers asked if McKinniss had heard about September 11th,"
the lawsuit states. The officer told McKinniss that since the 2001 terrorist attacks, it was illegal to photograph bridges, airports, and refineries, although no such law exists.

"One of the officers acknowledged that it was probably permissible to take photographs of a major tourist attraction, such as the Golden Gate Bridge, since so many people did so, but he did not otherwise retract or refine his statement that McKinniss was in violation of the law by photographing the ExxonMobil refinery," the lawsuit states.
Officers then ordered him to stand motionless with his hands clasped behind him. One officer patted him down.

"While she did so, one of the officers asked McKinniss if he was a terrorist. McKinniss replied that he was not," the lawsuit states.

Later, one officer took two or three pictures of him with a digital camera. Another officer took a print of his right thumb without his consent, the lawsuit states.

The suit said the encounter ended without officers telling him that the detention and investigation were over. But when the officers returned to their squad cars, one officer said over the speaker in his car, "Thanks, Jim."

"It's pretty apparent the Torrance Police Department unlawfully detained, searched, fingerprinted, and photographed a person who had every right to do what he was doing," McKinniss' lawyer, Robert Myers, said Thursday.

Myers said there have been similar complaints against police made by photographers across the country.

The lawyer said the main reason McKinniss filed the lawsuit is "to prevent this from happening to him again in Torrance. His major objective is not to make money off this lawsuit, but to make sure that he can go about taking photographs without being stopped by the Torrance Police Department."

The newspaper said the lawsuit also asks for punitive damages against the department, an order that the fingerprint and photographs of McKinniss be destroyed, and that department officials turn over a list of any law enforcement agencies that received information about his detention.

Lt. Rod Irvine, a spokesman for the Torrance Police Department, said he had not received a copy of the lawsuit, so he could not comment on it. But he did say that activity in the area near the refinery is "obviously a concern for us."

"It is a volatile location," Irvine added. "I think the federal government identified oil refineries as potential (terrorism) targets. It is one of our focuses of concern."
Copyright © 2005 Kalmbach Publishing Co. All rights reserved.

 

[Grog]

Ya gotta love lawyers

 

[mkewman]

Good for Jim!

 

[budmci]

I photograph trains every week. Local cops have checked me out two or three times. They are always polite. A few Sundays ago they were a little persistant about what I was doing. The next day in the paper there was an article about a Saturday night suicide by train about 100 feet from where from where I was shooting. We need to remember most often their concerns are quite genuine.

 

[MacombMonitor]

There is two sides to every story like this. Sometimes the police overreact, sometimes the other person overreacts. This time, it looks like everyone overreacted.:roll:

 

[unitcharlie]

This is why, since early on 11 September 2001, I have worn my ID in plain sight... not having been an "ID Freak" prior to the Attack it shocked a few people that suddenly I had become one freely and openly displaying my foto and name for all to see. Fact of life: there are potential targets out there that need protection. Fact of life: the people charged with protecting those targets need to use a little common sense in the pursuit of their duties. Someone gathering intel is going to be as inconspicuous as possible and blend in with the masses so as to gather as much accurate intel possible. I don’t think, even with night vision gear or infra-red film, there would have been much value in pix taken at 0430 with all the high-heat and high intensity light sources in the vicinity....

 

[ironhorse1]

Unitcharlie,

I agree with you about the ID. Maybe railfans SHOULD start wearing it out in the open while engaged in our hobby! You can get clear plastic envelopes (made just for this) pretty cheaply. I've only had one "encounter" in my entire 50+ year life and it was very pleasant. I gladly answered his questions and explained what I was photographing and why. I even produced the pics (digital) and he seemed more than satisfied after he ran my license. (I certainly had no problem with that!) Here's three things that helped me out... It was daylight! (Not 4:30am)... I was well out in the open and I was NOT on RR property! The whole "encounter" lasted about 5 minutes. It was well worth it. Next time I see this cop I don't have to worry. Believe me, the word gets around in a small town!!

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be better just to stop by and "check in" if you're in a different town? Here's my ID.. if you see me taking pictures of trains this is why... You'll have NO problems with me. If I see anything out of the ordinary I'll let you know...

I've never done that, but I sometimes think it's better to go to them first instead of letting them come to you!!

Just my 2 cents worth...

 

[Thunderbolt]

I had a similar experience like this, but it happened well before 9-11 occurred, in the early 1990s. I was following a Conrail switching train that was at our local GM plant. I had talked with the engineer, who I knew very well, and he had no problems with me following their train and taking photos of them switching the plant.

I drove down to the area and got my camera and tripod out and was waiting for the train to come down once he got the OK from the dispatcher. I was on public property and the GM factory was across the street. The train came down and I took the photos of him going into the factory and start switching out the boxcars that were there.

Around ten minutes later, a GM security guard pulled up and asked me what I was doing taking photos of "his" factory. I explained to him that I was taking photos of the train and had permission from the engine crew to take pictures. He advised me that it was illegal to take photos of industrial sites, and that he demanded that I turn the film over to him or he would call the police and have me arrested for industrial espionage.

Thankfully, I had just loaded a fresh roll of film into my camera, and I rewound it and gave it to him. I figured it would shut him up and it did. However, after that incident, I was always very cautious about taking photos in certain areas, especially after the horror stories that I have heard from fellow railfans, in the wake of 9-11.

73's

Ron

 

[OpSec]

You gave a GM plant guard (with zero enforcement authority regardless, since you aren't on "his" property) your film? Huh?

Let him call the local's...as soon as he tells him that ca-ca about industrial espionage, the cop would probably started laughing. You had a legit purpose, and it was verifiable. You did what you thought you should do, but in all seriousness you really caved in a situation that you didn't need to.

 

[icom1020]

I was on a platform a couple of years ago photographing a Sounder train outside Seattle and a Pinkerton Guard came up and asked me what I was doing and he said "Haven't you heard of 9-eleven"? he didnt bother me as he was already bothered with his goofy coke bottle glasses on. If someone asks for your digtal card/film, it's intellectual property. A friend of mine was challenged in LA by LA Sheriffs over him taking pictures at a public station and they wanted his digital card. Basically he said no, and its "$!0 dollars an image" if you want it "and they went away. One never assumes anything.

 

[n3bxv]

Here are a couple of good references for any photographer - http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

The general rule in the United States that anyone may take photographs of whatever they want when they are in a public place or places where they have permission to take photographs. Absent a specific legal prohibition such as a statute or ordinance, you are legally entitled to take photographs. Examples of places that are traditionally considered public are streets, sidewalks, and public parks.

Property owners may legally prohibit photography on their premises but have no right to prohibit others from photographing their property from other locations.

And
http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Mar/1/127089.html
excerpt-

"The guiding principle, that of course is muddled with exceptions, is that as long as a photograph of private property is taken while the photographer is on public property or on property that is open to the public then it is permissible to publish that photograph without permission from the owner of the property. "

 

[kb2vxa]

Hi all,

This is a hot topic of late and getting hotter by the day. There sure are two sides to the story (Did you get permission to reproduce it from Kalmbach?) and two sides to every sidebar. Here I only read one but from a law enforcement point of view they had probable cause to detain and question a "suspect" for up to 36 and in some states 48 hours without charging him with a crime. If you have been paying attention to the news industrial sites security is prime cause for concern. IMO his "civil rights" weren't violated on the face of it.

Better safe than sorry, first check in with all law enforcement that may be involved (forget about the plant rent-a-cops) and inform them of where you will be and when and what you intend to do on public property. When photographing trains first enquire if the railroad has a photo ban, so many do and if so don't tell them, just stay off railroad property and this means station platforms and parking lots. For example NJ Transit police are affiliated with the NJSP and have jurisdiction off railroad property so what they don't know won't hurt you. PANY/NJ or "the pony police" and NYCTA likewise. Sometimes it's best not to set up for an all day shoot, that is unless you're cool with them, so listen for FRED and check the passenger schedule for the best time to take your photos and leave for another location.

"Lt. Rod Irvine, a spokesman for the Torrance Police Department, said he had not received a copy of the lawsuit, so he could not comment on it."
Likely because no attorney in his right mind would take the case. (;->)

NJ Rail 4033 wye 5 at Long Branch, clear the Bay Head running track.

 

[hulka]

IMOA, 9-11 is the excuse for everything anymore. I understand the world has changed alot but alls I see anymore is since 9-11 they are out to get me syndrome.

 

[Thunderbolt]

You gave a GM plant guard (with zero enforcement authority regardless, since you aren't on "his" property) your film? Huh?

I gave him a blank roll of film to shut him up. He threatened to call the police if I didn't hand over the film and confiscate my camera equipment. Likewise, the guard was giving me a lecture on industrial espionage and how I can be sued, the whole nine yards of BS. I honestly did not feel like arguing with the man any further and to despite my claims that I had every right to take photos from public property, he said "prove it."

Sadly, I wish I would have known the laws better back then concerning photography. If he would have done anything I could have sued them and probably won my case. However, I was just out of high school at that time.

73's

Ron

 

[MacombMonitor]

About 35 years ago, when I was too young to know better, a friend who worked for Bendix Aerospace out by you, took me there to show me around. As we approached the buildings, I pulled out a 35mm camera and start snapping shots of their big satellite dish. Seconds later, I was confronted by three security personnel demanding I.D., my camera, and asking all kinds of questions. I remained calm, answer all their questions, handed them my camera. They gave it back, film included, and told me to keep it in the car. I complied immediately, and walked away with a couple nice pictures...which I've since lost.

Maybe today they'd just shoot me!

Bill

 

[toydriver_det]

About 35 years ago, when I was too young to know better, a friend who worked for Bendix Aerospace out by you, took me there to show me around. As we approached the buildings, I pulled out a 35mm camera and start snapping shots of their big satellite dish. Seconds later, I was confronted by three security personnel demanding I.D., my camera, and asking all kinds of questions. I remained calm, answer all their questions, handed them my camera. They gave it back, film included, and told me to keep it in the car. I complied immediately, and walked away with a couple nice pictures...which I've since lost.

Maybe today they'd just shoot me!

Bill

I just went the checkpoint at the Oakland County courthouse with my camera phone. I was already inside when I remebered it so I thought I would be sneaky and put it face down in the tray with my keys and stuff. They held it up and said "This is a camera!" and gave it back to me to take out to the car. They could have really gave a bad time as there is about 3 or 4 signs that say no cameras! But they were nice about it and I just had to go through the line again without the cell phone.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Maybe today they'd just shoot me!

Bill

I heard on some radio show several months ago that this guy was shot at for taking pictures around Area 51 in Nevada. When you mentioned that I could somehow visualize that in my mind. Thankfully, the person on the radio said they only fired "warning shots," but still that would be enough to give me a heart attack.

73's

Ron

 

[MacombMonitor]

I heard on some radio show several months ago that this guy was shot at for taking pictures around Area 51 in Nevada. When you mentioned that I could somehow visualize that in my mind. Thankfully, the person on the radio said they only fired "warning shots," but still that would be enough to give me a heart attack.

73's

Ron

Around Area 51 that's understandable, and probably justified. They do have warning signs to that effect.

 

[KR4BD]

Anymore, taking pictures can be a problem. I take lots of rail pictures, but have had little trouble doing so. But, about 10 years ago, long before 9/11, I was in Southern California on business. One of my brothers is a landscape architect and plant/tree expert. He told me about a Shopping Mall in the Santa Ana area that was known worldwide for its collection of trees. Supposedly, there was a vast collection of rare trees throughout the parking lot and he just wanted to see what was there. I went there around 9 AM on a Sunday morning so I would not have to deal with crowds. I wasn't there 5 minutes when the Mall Cops came out and told me I was not allowed to take pictures. I tried to ask why, but they just were more interested in running me OFF the property RIGHT NOW or they were calling the REAL POLICE to have me arrested. I never could figure out what I was doing wrong. But the mall is on private property and they CAN make the rules, I guess.

 

[radio10-8]

Amateur and professional photographers all know this simple rule. 1st GET THE SHOT, 2nd (Fill in your own rule here.) After 9-11 I was given written directives by my superiors to keep an eye out for people photographing electrical lines, railroads, airports and the freeway underpasses. I asked what law are they breaking? I was told "NONE but they could be gathering intel." I agree, yes they could be gathering intel. In my experiences so far every rail fan or Airplane fan that sits at the end of a runway or next to a rail and photographs these vehicles to submit to a website has never been an issue or problem to me while working. Most people always show ID even when I didn't ask for it and tell me about the website they are submitting for. If you are contacted day or night by the POLICE not security guards, Always do this. Move your hands slowly, you might be nervous and that is OK! a scanner or camera can look like many things at night. RELAX your doing nothing wrong, we just want to see what you are doing. Now security guards will demand to hand over film and cameras and want to see your ID. Always ask that the police be called out to asses the situation. Call the police yourself! Use your digital camera in movie mode to capture what the security guards are saying. In my own experience I was taking pictures of ground crew while waiting inside of an airplane. A man came over to me and said "It is illegal to take pictures inside of an aircraft." I said really I did not know that, for my reference is it a penal code or FAA rule that I am violatiing I want to read it when I get home. The man said I am an Air Marshall don't argue with me. I said no problem, but can I see your ID? He refused to show ID stating the flight crew knew him and could validate his ID. So I pressed the call button and asked the steward if he knew this guy. The steward said no and asked to see his itinerary. He was a TSA screener on the way to an airport that was shorthanded was his story. (With no federal law enforcement power per TSA.) that was flexing a little power. I showed him my ID and calmly said. Whenever you asked by a citizen to ID yourself or prove your authority you really should do so I gave him my business card and said have your supervisor call me or I will be calling TSA in a few days. Once while photographing a major concrete pour for a high rise, a security guard gave me a huge hassle so I took his picture with flash of course and it is one of the funniest pictures.