2 curving satellites

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eorange

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I spend a lot of clear sky nights observing satellites, and have done this for many years. A while back on an exceptionally clear night, I observed 3 pairs of satellites. The first two pairs were 'apparent' pairs, meaning one was following the other, south to north in the eastern sky. These were probably coincidental orbits of unrelated satellites.

The third pair was quite different. Two satellites, side-by-side, rose from the southern horizon (but not due south), on their way to passing directly overhead. But before they reached overhead, they curved - in opposite directions. One curved towards east, and one curved towards west. The 'split' was pretty dramatic and fast...easily the coolest thing I think I've ever seen.

I am aware of the Coriolis effect, but I would have expected both curving in the same directions, as far as my understanding goes. I don't understand the opposing split that I saw. I use satellite tracking software, but was unable to match what I saw to my data.

Any ideas?
 

a417

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Could they be some sort of satellite(s) in an medium earth/geosynchronous orbit, like a Molniya or tundra orbit? Satellite radio services are one I can think of that use that type, but I can't quite figure out why there'd be two in parallel orbits (or any satellite for that matter). Must have been quite the interesting thing to see.
 
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BackHive67

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I'd love to know what you seen. You could try the guy at this website.. Jonathan's Space Home Page
I bet he'd know. The website is quite 'old style' but I assure you it's updated probably on a daily basis. He has an interesting satellite mailing list which you can subscribe to. If you contact him and you get an answer, make sure to let us know here.

Regards.

BH67/.
 

eorange

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Could they be some sort of satellite(s) in an medium earth/geosynchronous orbit, like a Molniya or tundra orbit?
That'e the closest thing I could think of too; I supposed that could've been the start of the "figure 8"? But 2 in opposite directions is what's messing me up.

The other thing...they were easily visible. Probably between 3.0 and 2.0 mag. I know the Geostationary sats are at least 10.0+ mag, i.e. not visible to the naked eye. Not sure what mag Geosynchronous sats usually are.
 

eorange

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I'd love to know what you seen. You could try the guy at this website..
Thanks; I will do a bit more reading and contact him. I am hoping he'd be eager to answer, given his field of study.

Being an amateur astronomer, only 3 events ever made me say "holy crap":

1. My first satellite observation in the summer of 1986. At the time I didn't know what it was.

2. Observing the black spot on Jupiter after Shoemaker-Levy 9 impacted the surface in 1994. That's the first time I ever observed a significant change on the surface of a planet. (And probably the last...)

3. This event.
 

rwier

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I spend a lot of clear sky nights observing satellites, and have done this for many years. A while back on an exceptionally clear night, I observed 3 pairs of satellites. The first two pairs were 'apparent' pairs, meaning one was following the other, south to north in the eastern sky. These were probably coincidental orbits of unrelated satellites.

The third pair was quite different. Two satellites, side-by-side, rose from the southern horizon (but not due south), on their way to passing directly overhead. But before they reached overhead, they curved - in opposite directions. One curved towards east, and one curved towards west. The 'split' was pretty dramatic and fast...easily the coolest thing I think I've ever seen.

I am aware of the Coriolis effect, but I would have expected both curving in the same directions, as far as my understanding goes. I don't understand the opposing split that I saw. I use satellite tracking software, but was unable to match what I saw to my data.

Any ideas?


With a computerized telescope, one can "lock on" and follow satellites as they zoom across the sky. One night, as a test of what is possible out on your driveway, myself, and a few neighbors had the following adventure:

I worked the computer. A neighbors boy who was world class with a joy stick made manual corrections at my direction. About three other neighbors with very good eyesight rotated duty at the eyepiece as to confirm (or deny) that a relative stationary light was staying near the center of view, as the heavens flew by in the background. A final volunteer neighbor was keeping score.

The satellites (with certain groups excepted) must be both in the sunlight, and above the horizon of the observer, who nearly always must have a fairly dark sky. This limits 99% of visual observations to between sundown and 2.5 hours later, and the 2.5 hours before sunup.

One night, as described earlier, we counted somewhere near 275 satellites confirmed at the eyepiece, in that 2.5 hour period after sundown. About 85% of those were too faint to be seen without optical assistance. An evening not easily forgotten.
 

eorange

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One night, as a test of what is possible out on your driveway, myself, and a few neighbors had the following adventure
That sounds really amazing! What a cool event and an awesome setup. I can just imagine the excitement when everyone realized this is actually working as the counts racked up.

I have seen a few sats whizz by my field of vision when I've done some observing through my scope, but it's by total coincidence. It's such a surprise when I see one that way that I'm rarely able to track it.

Thanks for the NOSS info. I have yet to see a NOSS sat with the unaided eye, let alone the pair. Every video I've seen shows one NOSS sat following the other. What I saw were 2 sats side by side, approaching together before they diverged in opposite directions.
 

rwier

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That sounds really amazing! What a cool event and an awesome setup. I can just imagine the excitement when everyone realized this is actually working as the counts racked up.

I have seen a few sats whizz by my field of vision when I've done some observing through my scope, but it's by total coincidence. It's such a surprise when I see one that way that I'm rarely able to track it.

Thanks for the NOSS info. I have yet to see a NOSS sat with the unaided eye, let alone the pair. Every video I've seen shows one NOSS sat following the other. What I saw were 2 sats side by side, approaching together before they diverged in opposite directions.

It is my belief that what looks like "dancing" sats is an optical illusion. I do not believe that the sats are rapidly changing position relative to each other.

Think of the three NOSS sats as affixed to the two tips of the wings and the tip of the nose of a military jet. Now when the jet flies, it most often must point in the direction of motion. Much of the flight time will be spent with the three sats in a plane nearly parallel to the earth's surface (I know it is really a sphere).

Now, let's insert that jet into orbit. It will not "fly" parallel to the ground (but it could change its orientation with a supply of fuel, like the ISS). Let's say we insert the jet into orbit "pointing" at Sirius, and with the two wing tip sats lining up "pointing" at the Andromeda Nebulae. The jet, without fuel burning maneuvers, will continue to orbit in that "pointing" configuration. Eventually, its orbit will deteriorate, and occasionally very small fuel burning maneuvers will be required to "touch up" the orbit.

Now, let us concentrate on how the jet will appear to observers on the earth. Supposing, that at one point, the jet appears to be flying normally, parallel to the ground. About 45 minutes later (all sats in Low Earth Orbit take about 90 minutes to make one orbit), on the opposite side of the earth, our jet will appear to be flying parallel to the ground, but up-side-down, and flying backwards! And, 45 minutes later, our jet/sat will have completed one orbit. It will appear to an observer as flying parallel to the ground, pointing in the direction of motion.

How far ln distance on the earth's surface, from the first observation and the one 90 minutes later? It varies from:

The most, at the equator. At a speed of 25000 miles (~ earth circumstance) in 24 hours (earth rotation speed) how much is covered in 1.5 hours. Left for the students exercise, lol.

to:

nothing at the poles.

So, that distance between observers is dependent on Latitude.

Now, during an orbit that passes directly overhead of the observer, and knowing the direction, and time, that the jet/sats rise above the horizon, the observer, using a pair of IS binos, may pick up a visual two or three minutes prior to the overhead pass. Taking into account the continuing observation after the over head pass, a total observation of 5 minutes is possible. This is 11% of the total "apparent" change that occurs during a half orbit (45 minutes).

Now, visualize your hand (the jet/sat) and a common pedestal globe (the earth). Visualize placing your hand flat above the surface on one side, palm side down. Now pick a point on the wall where your fingers are pointing, and remember it. Visualize where a line passing through the four fist knuckles (pretend sat/jet wing tip to wing tip) intersects two sides of the room. Imagine moving your hand slowly, from the starting point, to a point directly on the other side of the globe, while constantly maintaining the three aiming points. Your hand will end up on the other side, palm up, and moving backwards.

Now, visualize an imaginary race car the can run around the globe under your hand. Observers in that vehicle would see your hand make a 180° back flip. Transferring this concept over to the jet/sat scenario, observers along the overhead pass route would see a slow back flip, rotating on an axis perpendicular to direction of travel.

All of the factors above could cause observers to report who-knows-what type of active motion between the sats, while actually, when viewed from Sirius, and the Andromeda Nebulae, they have not even flinched.

Another rotation factor exists, but its affect is very slow moving, the jet/sat will make one rotation a year, around a line drawn perpendicular to the plane of the earth/sun rotation. This is, of course, due to the earth's trip around the sun.

It would be rare to type as many words as are above without making some serious "mis-speaks", especially considering that I am, at this time, in a local Phoenix area hospital recovering from a severe infection of the lower extremities (Cellulitis?). Lotta serious meds in my blood right now, lol. So I would welcome corrections.

Also, I would like to thank eorange for his question, as it triggered a form of mental exercise that I have not experienced for several years. I forgot how much I miss it.

For those that care (if any), I actually have a title:

Registered Land Surveyor, Arizona (Retired)
 

ab5r

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Very interesting thread. I'm no expert, but I was wondering IF these to satellites only appeared to be parallel in flight and at different altitudes. Was one brighter that the other? Could one be in a prograde orbit and the other in retrograde orbit?

As you say, who knows? Was this ultimate separation in different directions sudden or smoothly done. Your description of "dramatic" could use some further explanation.

Regards
 

eorange

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rwier: Thank you for the detailed thought experiment. I read it twice so far; give me a handful of days to think it through. To date I feel the best hypothesis so far is in there somewhere! And best wishes for a speedy recovery; I hope all goes well.

To better illustrate what I saw...see the attached picture. To properly visualize:

1. Anchor the bottom of the image to the plane of your monitor.
2. Rotate the top of the image 90 degrees away from the plane of your monitor, towards you. The image is now parallel to the ground.
3. Project the image straight up so it's superimposed onto the celestial sphere above you; zenith is roughly where the divergence starts.

As the sats moved from South to North, they appeared parallel for most of the way. Then they diverged...suddenly and smooth. The second they started to diverge, I was like, "What the...?" In no time they were traveling rapidly away from each other. I found myself turning East, then West, then East to keep both in sight.

When you've observed sats for years and 100% of them appear to travel in what I call a regular orbital path, and then you see 2 sats doing this...the dramatic nature speaks for itself. Up until this, an Iridium flare was about the most unusual sat event I've seen.
 

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rwier

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rwier: Thank you for the detailed thought experiment. I read it twice so far; give me a handful of days to think it through. To date I feel the best hypothesis so far is in there somewhere! And best wishes for a speedy recovery; I hope all goes well.

To better illustrate what I saw...see the attached picture. To properly visualize:

1. Anchor the bottom of the image to the plane of your monitor.
2. Rotate the top of the image 90 degrees away from the plane of your monitor, towards you. The image is now parallel to the ground.
3. Project the image straight up so it's superimposed onto the celestial sphere above you; zenith is roughly where the divergence starts.

As the sats moved from South to North, they appeared parallel for most of the way. Then they diverged...suddenly and smooth. The second they started to diverge, I was like, "What the...?" In no time they were traveling rapidly away from each other. I found myself turning East, then West, then East to keep both in sight.

When you've observed sats for years and 100% of them appear to travel in what I call a regular orbital path, and then you see 2 sats doing this...the dramatic nature speaks for itself. Up until this, an Iridium flare was about the most unusual sat event I've seen.

Obvious answer. Those were not satellites. Satellites can't turn like an airplane. They cannot physically preform that maneuver. My guess: High-flying aircraft, or a transportation system that is unknown to the common man.

The sharpest possible "turn" by an object in earth orbit would so gradual that it would not be noticeable by a person on the ground.
 

eorange

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I'm as sure as I can be that they were not conventional aircraft. Neither had strobes, beacons, or nav lights. I know what aircraft look like at night, including aerial refueling maneuvers which I have seen quite a few times in the pitch black (albeit at much lower altitudes).

They looked like sats - a single unwavering point of light among the stars - and traveled the celestial sphere, unlike the "straight vector" flight path of an aircraft that just sort of cuts across the sky.

Maybe I did observe a NOSS pair, coupled with the autokinetic effect, or some other optical illusion? This unreferenced article alludes to that: How to view, track, and identify satellites, page 1
 

rwier

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I'm as sure as I can be that they were not conventional aircraft. Neither had strobes, beacons, or nav lights. I know what aircraft look like at night, including aerial refueling maneuvers which I have seen quite a few times in the pitch black (albeit at much lower altitudes).

They looked like sats - a single unwavering point of light among the stars - and traveled the celestial sphere, unlike the "straight vector" flight path of an aircraft that just sort of cuts across the sky.

Maybe I did observe a NOSS pair, coupled with the autokinetic effect, or some other optical illusion? This unreferenced article alludes to that: How to view, track, and identify satellites, page 1

" ... I found myself turning East, then West, then East to keep both in sight ... "
If by "both in sight" you mean observing both, but not at the same time, this becomes the definitive statement as to your observation.


Again, orbital objects (satellites, planets, asteroids, moons, comets) can not perform these maneuvers. All "known" vehicles that can perform these maneuvers must do so in the atmosphere and at a speed low enough to avoid heat damage. As an example, when the Space Shuttle operates in the atmosphere, and at safe speeds, it uses the same control systems as an airplane. However, when in orbit, they could move those wing and tail controls forever, with absolutely no effect what-so-ever.

As to an explanation of your observation, I can only think of three explanations:

1) Two objects operating in the atmosphere using standard aircraft control systems.

2) Two objects operating in space, using a "known" control system that has not been explained to the general public (TOP SECRET).

3) Two objects operating in space, using a control system that is "unknown" to mankind.
 

eorange

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Not disagreeing, and space is much more likely than atmosphere based on what I saw. I know what airplanes look like at FL30 to FL33 (these weren't it), and I once heard a checkin from FL50. Since these were solid points of light - like a sat - how high do you have to be to become illuminated from the sun? In space?
 
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