"junked" Satellites

[Radiorick]

Hello,

I was chatting with a few friends last night and the topic of sat comms came up. One of the gents started to rant about how there are several no longer used satellites in orbit that are unstable yet workable. How accurate would you gage that statement?

Are there prior commercial ran/owned birds that can used in this fashion (establishing a "net")?

Or was he referring to Amsat birds?

Cheers,
RR

 

[LEH]

I was chatting with a few friends last night and the topic of sat comms came up. One of the gents started to rant about how there are several no longer used satellites in orbit that are unstable yet workable. How accurate would you gage that statement?

I would say he's pretty close. I did a search and found a Wikipedia article that has some interesting info and numbers.

Like there are something like 26, 000 objects/satellites in orbit. Not all are working, some is just debris, maybe 7% according to the article.

 

[Radiorick]

I wonder if anyone on RR is working one...

 

[SkipSanders]

Trying to 'steal' use of a satellite would be one of the stupider things anyone could try.

If a satellite is 'dead', it's uplink frequencies will be quickly used for something else, if they weren't already shared. And it's quite possible for the control stations to locate a pirate user by timing the arrival of his transmissions at various satellites.

True, if you're not in the US, they're not going to declare war... probably. There are some 'pirate' users of the 300 MHz milsats. But if you were in the US, you can bet you'd quickly receive a 'visit' that would be... not fun.

 

[Radiorick]

Trying to 'steal' use of a satellite would be one of the stupider things anyone could try.

I wasn't hinting towards "stealing" of any sorts. But with your reaction it seems that the you're assuming that I'd be interested in piracy... that is not the case. I was under the impression that after a bird has reached its shelf life for the commercial sector that these bird have been abandoned... is there no such thing as an open for all bird (Due the cost to get it in orbit I could understand that it would be "milked" for all its use), is there not a point where it is a tad unstable for general use?

 

[Radiorick]

Are there prior commercial ran/owned birds that can used in this fashion (establishing a "net")?

ahhh "commercial"... okay now I see where you got hung up (or I got hung up)...

 

[Radiorick]

I was thinking of timing the calls though as to when the decommissioned bird would make a pass... but It's starting to looking like the idea is flawed... looks like my only resource is Amsat.

 

[SkipSanders]

Any satellite 'up there' is owned, and jealously so, by someone. And any attempt to use one without exact knowledge is highly likely to interfere with not just that one, but many satellites. Using a 'dead' (and how do you know?) satellite will damage its functions (by draining power), when it might just be in use, still, for some very minor things.

Several old milsats were 'dead', at one time, but still in use, for emergency communications between various agencies.

No permission, no touch.

 

[Radiorick]

That is a very valid point....

 

[prcguy]

Conventional C and Ku satellites are disabled at end of life to allow replacement satellites to operate in the same frequency range. An orbital slot is a precious commodity and they don't just abandon an operational satellite where you could make use of it. Most satellites reach end of life due to lack of fuel which is used to keep the satellite within its prescribed "box". Once the fuel is used up the satellite can be used for awhile in an inclined orbit until the owner (or insurance company) decides its unusable, even though the batteries and electronics are fully operational. There is always enough fuel calculated and kept to move the satellite out to make room for a replacement. There are also many in orbit operational spares waiting to be awakened when the primary satellite fails.
prcguy

 

[Radiorick]

Thanks for the insight gents.

 

[k9rzz]

So, let's say 'Joe Pirate' figures out how to use Sat. A, and transmits on the uplink of 300mhz using 10 watts and a yagi antenna. Even if the FCC narrows it down to, say the east coast of North America, just how is he going to be tracked down further? Certainly if they get within normal VHF range of him, it's no problem, but just to nail down what city would be difficult, wouldn't it?

 

[SkipSanders]

It won't be the FCC looking, it would be a military enforcement unit, since you'd be interfering with US Military sats. Brilliant thing to do in the current paranoia.

There is more than one sat that could 'see' you. If pushed into looking for you, the military can do very precise timing of when your signal arrives at various satellites and quite accurately triangulate you. They don't usually bother for the foreign based occasional 'pirates', but if they see someone in the US, bet that they'd LOVE to 'make an example', and send you to federal prison.

 

[prcguy]

In the US it would be the FCC that visits you and I believe someone was recently caught playing on UHF mil sats. I read an FCC report about a guy in Brentwood, CA who was caught transmitting in the UHF mil sat uplink band and fined and maybe its just a coincidence he had a Portuguese (Brazilian) surname. He was also a ham with technical knowledge on how to accomplish this. I don't know for sure if he was communicating with Brazilian pirates but the frequency range listed was very specific and what else would you be transmitting to there? Also, in So, Cal and I'm told in many other large cities there is an extensive RF DF system operated originally by the DOD that has many mountain top sites tied together and accessed remotely. Once you become enough of a nuisance and the system is set to the frequency of interest, your location will show up on a map the next time you transmit. A good friend of mine witnessed the system in use over 20yrs ago in an FCC station wagon and the field engineer had a computer in the vehicle tied to a cell phone to access the system.
prcguy

It won't be the FCC looking, it would be a military enforcement unit, since you'd be interfering with US Military sats. Brilliant thing to do in the current paranoia.

There is more than one sat that could 'see' you. If pushed into looking for you, the military can do very precise timing of when your signal arrives at various satellites and quite accurately triangulate you. They don't usually bother for the foreign based occasional 'pirates', but if they see someone in the US, bet that they'd LOVE to 'make an example', and send you to federal prison.

 

[PACNWDude]

Jumping onto "junk" UFO satellites.

Once while in southwest Asia, I had a need to send some small document files and with the gear I had. UHF Follow On (UFO) satellites were the best bet the data would be sent. I had access to Harris PRC-117F radios, Trivec AV-2040-x antennas and Panasonic CF-72 Toughbooks to type my documents up.

From previous experience with military satellite earth stations, I knew that anything under 2Mb files would pass below the " radar" so to speak. So this took place for several months. However, the instant one of my crew sent a 2.1Mb file, two NSA officers were sent to my location to have a "chat".

Luckily, there was some understanding of my situation and all was well. Under different circumstances, this could get someone into a lot of trouble.

It is common for old end of life satellites, (American ones anyway) to be used for training by Air Force Space Command at Peterson AFB. These are used to train new personnel in adjusting orbits, setting uplink/downlink parameters, changing transponders and many other tasks.

For a ham operator or some individual person to do this would: not be wise, could result in many fines and imprisonment, or if it is some foreign satellite, could be worse.

In some countries rival cell phone vendors are know to kidnap technicians, blow up competitors towers and generally wreak havoc to keep their strangle hold on the market. It is just as bad trying to use some countries satellites.