Not happy with SKYWARN at ALL!

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KD0LWU

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Two days ago we had a decent storm move through the area, it split into two cells, one went South quickly, the other tracked South and East.
I was tracking it and went where I thought it would go. As I try to position myself they switch from one repeater to another, fine, but it's more than 70 miles for the switch (Derby KS to Beaumont KS) and few, if any could hit the repeater that were in the actual storm. I heard net control tell more than one spotter to just call his cell phone as he was breaking up! Nice, but I don't have that number!
I went home unhappy about this.
Tonight, I'm watching a cell, slow mover but growing, looked to me like a hail threat. I was wrong.
I went to where I thought it would track, checked the radar, it went South, so I haul and get gas in 50 plus mph winds and head south.
I am disgusted with what I see! There is a 24"ish inch tree blown over Rose Hill Road and the roof is blown off of the Rose Hill Recreation gym. This isn't a minor event, we are used to wind here! I also note several 8-9" tree branches lying in the road.
But Skywarn was NEVER activated? I tried to call in reports, but to no one! I was monitoring three known repeaters with HAM radios and running the scanner, nothing!
I am beyond livid over this! I am not trying to chase, I am trying to spot and warn others of what is coming, but is this what it's becoming?
I was really trying to get into it and enjoyed the thought of letting others know what was coming, but if NOAA say's they don't need spotters, even though wrong, are we not going to protect and notify people?
More and more I am questioning why I even bothered to become a HAM.
 

rdale

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You've got about 4 unrelated issues going on here... I'll try to help.

I heard net control tell more than one spotter to just call his cell phone as he was breaking up! Nice, but I don't have that number!

Call the NWS office directly. No need to be unhappy. If the ham frequency won't work, then use the phone. There's no harm in that.

But Skywarn was NEVER activated?

It's a volunteer process. Completely. If volunteers aren't available, nobody can hear you.

I tried to call in reports, but to no one!

Again - use your phone.

I am trying to spot and warn others of what is coming, but is this what it's becoming?

Now I'm lost. What is "it" becoming?

if NOAA say's they don't need spotters

I assume you meant NWS? In any case - who told you they don't need spotters? They sure didn't say that.

More and more I am questioning why I even bothered to become a HAM.

Being a ham has nothing to do with being a spotter, so while I'm trying hard to find where you're going - I'm lost...
 
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I love being a ham its great and i belong to the cuyahoga county skywarn in cleveland and yes its 100% volunteer.maybe people could not get to the radios to have a skywarn going at that time but sounds like your doing a great job get your ham license your love being a volunteer.i'm also a volunteer fireman and a member of REACT here in cleveland.
 

burner50

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I think you're very confused about what skywarn is, and whay skywarn isn't...
 

KD0LWU

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Yes, NWS, sorry, I'm unhappy. I was told dispatch activated Skywarn five min, after this event occurred.

Yes, it is volunteer, but they had been reporting on the NOAA channels that spotter activation would not be required.

There was a group of people in the Rose Hill Rec center gym, several cars were damaged, luckily no one was hurt!

Use of a cell phone is this area is sporadic at best, just because it worked yesterday doesn't mean it will work there tomorrow! We can't be dependent on cell phones in this part of the country. You also have to have the numbers, which I do now, thanks to another Skywarn member I met tonight that was just as disgusted as I was.

"If this it what it's become"
If they can't realize they made a mistake, backtrack, utilize the resources they have at hand and drop a set to warn people what is happening, rather than stick to the idea that nothing is going to come from a storm, even when a severe thunderstorm warning is issued for the area?

I became a Ham to meet and talk to interesting people, I like to socialize, this hasn't turned into what I thought or hoped. Storm spotting at least offered me some gratification for putting in the effort and buying the equipment.
 

rdale

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Yes, it is volunteer, but they had been reporting on the NOAA channels that spotter activation would not be required.

No, that's not what they said: SKYWARN SPOTTER ACTIVATION IS NOT ANTICIPATED TODAY OR TONIGHT.

Not the same as "would not be." Sometimes a storm will pop up that's stronger than expected. If that's the case, are you saying that Skywarn won't activate because the outlook 8 hours ago said Skywarn is not anticipated? Wrong.

There was a group of people in the Rose Hill Rec center gym, several cars were damaged, luckily no one was hurt!

Sure are lucky. However a Severe Thunderstorm Warning had been issued for that storm prior to it hitting. So Skywarn not being up had no impact on alerting people. The Rec Center should have had their weather radio and other alerting systems activated when the SVR was issued.

Use of a cell phone is this area is sporadic at best, just because it worked yesterday doesn't mean it will work there tomorrow! We can't be dependent on cell phones in this part of the country.

Understood. But them's the beans you are dealt. If the Skywarn net control doesn't activate, you're stuck.

If they can't realize they made a mistake, backtrack, utilize the resources they have at hand and drop a set to warn people what is happening, rather than stick to the idea that nothing is going to come from a storm, even when a severe thunderstorm warning is issued for the area?

They who? They didn't make a "mistake" and they did utilize the resources. The first damage report came in at 756pm (just 7 minutes after the warning was issued) by the Butler County EMA. So the system worked.

You are expecting the NWS to take the time to issue a new HWO to say "Skywarn should activate"? No! Skywarn should activate when the warning is issued (if not prior.) But again I remind you -- volunteer. When somebody doesn't answer, remind yourself -- volunteer.
 

KD0LWU

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"They" Being NWS.

I must digress, most of the people I've met in this network have been nothing but great people! Yes, I'm unhappy about the repeater switch, but at the same time I'm trying to find ways to rectify that on my end, I'll get over that.

I got a text four min before the storm hit, I doubt others are as diligent, had this become more public, they might have heard before it hit.
Yes, no one got hurt, that is great, but......................

As I understood it, again a newbie, NWS had to anticipate or activate the net?

Yes, it's volunteer, and yes I respect the others that do this, I've chased signals to find the repeater used, as it's not the same every time, I've tried to gain some re pore with the others that work the net (not really an easy thing as a newbie) and I've tried to shut up and listen to learn and only report pertinent information.
I'm not a know it all, I'm not trying to say it should be this way or that.
But tonight I saw a definite flaw in the system and would love some feedback how to make it better, or find out what I'm not seeing right.
Yes, I am upset, but I am not being nasty or belligerent about it, just looking for answers!
 

thomast77

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Santa Rosa County, Florida
Most storm chasers call NWS or local news stations in the path of the storm when they see something. Their Ham radios are just reserved for communication between vehicles on simplex. Skywarn in my area frowns on people driving into dangerous storms. My understanding of skywarn is to report what you can see standing outside your home. Thats really all they want you to do. So if you want to chase storms you should probably skip skywarn and go direct to the NWS.
 

KD0LWU

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Normally I do report from home, I was thinking this was a hail storm so I went mobile to get around to see the hail core on the back side.
Again, I SPOT, not CHASE!
Normally we have Skywarn active and they position spotters in locations for a vantage point to report from. We are not asked to do this, but in this area it's the best way to gain perspective on what's happening in a large area.
I've heard the net control ask numerous times if they are in the path of this or that and to move if they are. I have no desire to drive into a hail core, much less a tornado, I've become rather dependent on the net control and was really disappointed to not have them tonight!
 

stevelton

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"They" Being NWS.


As I understood it, again a newbie, NWS had to anticipate or activate the net?

NWS has nothing to do with activating Ham skywarn nets. Well, OK, not in my area.
They have a ham radio but dont ever have anyone there to monitor. Skywarn groups (i.e. YOU and your buddies) hear some rumbling to the west, and look at your radar. If it looks like it could get bed, then YOU activate the skywarn net, with or without a warning issued. Dont wait for someone else to do it, that would be time wasted. If you think there is a potential for severe weather, then by all means, take it upon yourself to activate the net, until a more suitable net control comes along.

good luck

Steven
 

reedeb

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NWS has nothing to do with activating Ham skywarn nets. Well, OK, not in my area.
They have a ham radio but dont ever have anyone there to monitor. Skywarn groups (i.e. YOU and your buddies) hear some rumbling to the west, and look at your radar. If it looks like it could get bed, then YOU activate the skywarn net, with or without a warning issued. Dont wait for someone else to do it, that would be time wasted. If you think there is a potential for severe weather, then by all means, take it upon yourself to activate the net, until a more suitable net control comes along.

good luck

Steven

ACTUALLY National Weather Service DOES make a request to the folks in charge of the SKYWARN to activate. BUT sometimes the storms build up so fast they only have a few short minutes OR sometimes it too late to activate for a storm. AND I do believe ONLY certain ones can activate a net. NEVER jump the chain of command!!

In April [IIRC] of this year we had one such storm here in Northern Texas do the same thing and SKYWARNS in several counties really had to hustle to set up, it blew up that fast.
 
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rdale

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My understanding of skywarn is to report what you can see standing outside your home. Thats really all they want you to do. So if you want to chase storms you should probably skip skywarn and go direct to the NWS.

Hate to say this - but absolutely wrong. Use existing Skywarn nets unless you can't reach them or they aren't active when you want to report storm conditions. It doesn't matter whether you're in your house or car.

ACTUALLY National Weather Service DOES make a request to the folks in charge of the SKYWARN to activate

Well, actually the folks in charge of Skywarn realize that when a watch or warning comes out, they need to activate. If they are proactive, they know that ahead of time. If they never do it until NWS calls them, they are missing the ball.
 

AK9R

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Well, actually the folks in charge of Skywarn realize that when a watch or warning comes out, they need to activate. If they are proactive, they know that ahead of time. If they never do it until NWS calls them, they are missing the ball.
Skywarn activation policies vary from group to group, county to county, and NWS office to NWS office.

In Central Indiana, the county-level Skywarn nets generally report to NWS through an "umbrella" net that handles all of the counties in the Indianapolis NWS CWA. But, the Central Indiana Net only activates when NWS requests it. That's by agreement between the people who run the net (I'm on the net control list) and the Warning Coordination Meterologist at the Indianapolis NWS office. The county nets, however, are free to activate as they see fit. If the Central Indiana Net is active, the counties report through it. If the Central Indiana Net is not active, the counties can call the NWS office by phone or radio. There is a radio permanently installed at the NWS office and the MIC, WCM, and some of the forecasters have their licenses.
 

talkpair

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BUT sometimes the storms build up so fast they only have a few short minutes OR sometimes it too late to activate for a storm.

I think this was the case here.

I was chatting with a friend last night in Wichita......He mentioned something about a severe thunderstorm warning being issued, and sounded surprised.

Was there a severe thunderstorm watch ever issued prior to the warning?
 

sirsmiley

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Im kinda confused here....what is the point of people driving into a storm to confirm there is a storm there? and to broadcast to a few others on a radio? Isnt that what we have tv and radio stations for?
 

jim202

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Hams and skywatch are like trying to tell your wife how to use a computer. Sometimes you can get it to happen and other times, you just lit the match to a can of fuel.

It is surprising that you couldn't raise anyone on any of the repeaters you tried. That tells me there is a small following that cares or is willing to work easily with any skywarn activity. If it like some nets that I have heard around the Washington DC area, you would think the world is coming to and end. Unless your a certified skywarn person, they don't want to even hear from you. The nets get activated at the drop of any windy rain and the repeaters being used become the personal property of who ever is the net control.

Do I support this kind of activity, NO. Would I support a skywarn net if it was run in a calm friendly manner, probably. So you can see there are a number of sides that one can take on this issue. There are many ways to run a skywarn net. Not too many I have heard around the country are very friendly to outside people.

I travel a good part of the time around the country going to public safety 911 dispatch centers and install interoperability gateways. Very few of these centers have any good things to say about hams and emergency communications. More than likely it is due to some of those hams trying to control the nets and repeaters during emergencies and the attitudes they have that have turned these agencies against the hams.

If these skywarn nets continue to be run by by those that get off on the ego trips during these nets, then maybe the local hams need to step up to the plate and say something. It won't change unless you can stand on your own 2 feet and pick the mic up and slow down these actions. If that doesn't work, then maybe trying to find out just which organization these people are trying to represent and then go to a meeting they have and voice your opinions.

Good luck.
 

lindsay34654

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Skywarn

Why did you become a ham all you did was complain that you would not follow storms when others are trying to avoid them and stay safe????????????

I thought you become a ham so that you can enjoy the hobby and meet interesting people. In live things do not always go how we plan. Instead of complaining about not having a number search the web for it. If you cannot make radio contact you think it might be the weather that affected it?
 

rdale

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what is the point of people driving into a storm to confirm there is a storm there?

Good question. Radar only tells us what's happening above the surface. Only eyes on the ground can confirm what is going on underneath.
 

n5ims

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Im kinda confused here....what is the point of people driving into a storm to confirm there is a storm there? and to broadcast to a few others on a radio? Isnt that what we have tv and radio stations for?

Simple. The radar can only see the storm from the very top down to a few thousand feed above the ground. While this is great for aircraft, it doesn't give the whole picture for the folks that live on the ground. This radar lets the NWS (National Weather Service) know that there's a storm, but not really what's happening on the ground.

Now if you feel it's important for folks to take precautions for EVERY storm the folks on the ground are not important. The problem here is folks will simply ignore the warning since most of them turn out to be simply storms that dump rain and maybe some wind. What the folks on the ground do is to give location specific detail on what that storm is doing.

Every storm has an updraft and many of the updrafts rotate enough for the rotation to be seen on radar. This doesn't mean that there's a tornado, just that the storm is doing what storms do. When this rotation starts to move lower (where the radar can't pick up) do folks start to worry. It takes eyes on the ground to see this and report it into the NWS (through Skywarn nets and several other methods). Trained spotters can identify this as well as other indications of severe weather.

It's often thought that the main damage by a storm is the tornado. This isn't the whole truth. Often times folks will say that their house was hit by a tornado, but it was really just very strong winds that did the damage (often called "straight line winds"). Actually, they cause similar damage to the F0, F1 and even some F2 tornados, but are much more common. Since there's no rotation, the radar isn't nearly as good at identifying them. Also, most of this type of wind is well below 1000 feet in height so the radars can't pick it up even if it was identifyable easily.

That's only a few of the reasons why the NWS still needs folks to watch the storms and report on what they see.

Why is it important for those folks to give those reports to "a few others on a radio"? Well, if that's as far as it went, it wouldn't be very important at all. It goes much further than that however. Those "few folks" are basically just one part of the data collection and reporting team. The Skywarn net consolidates the reports and relays the information back to the NWS so they can factor that information into their warnings.

Often times, the NWS has a ham that is part of the Skywarn net that will monitor the nets (often they handle several frequencies during a widespread outbreak) and will check in and ask for details on what has been reported. Since they sit with the forcasters, their input is as important as the radar data in the decision to issue a warning or even what kind of warning is issued.

The Radio and TV stations job isn't to collect the data (although many do have spotters working for them), but to send out the reports to the population. In my area, when there's bad storms a chat session is set up with the media folks, NWS, Emergency Management Centers, and others. This allows a back-channel for the various media to report on things that their team may see as well as share information.

The media here have various types of Weather Radars that can pick up certain things better than others. With this back-channel they can report on things that they pick up that may not be available to the others or to the NWS. While this information is probably filtered to protect the station's investments, it is distributed "for the greater good". Also, since the media's radars (several stations have multiple radar sites) are spread out, they help provide coverage of the storm's lower heights better than the single NWS radar will. Often they can use one of those radars to confirm what they think they see on their own.

Until the NWS can get a weather station on each cell phone tower and a radar site every few square miles, there'll be the need for trained eyes on the storm reporting back what it is doing.
 
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