re: id'ing some strange sounds

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steve-kc7byp

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re: id'ing some strange sounds

I heard the following sounds. Each sound track comes with a screen capture., The 1st sound file link is at https://www.dropbox.com/s/7hxzctdn9gmih99/strange digital sound1 854.302.mp3?dl=0 The freq is 854.302mhz.

The 2nd sound file is at https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ani24jl2y3wsx1/strange digital sound 854.452.mp3?dl=0 The freq is 804.452mhz. Other digital and analog signals are sounding like the signal in the 2nd recording. Like the audio input is been over driven in SDRSHARP. I don't know if I have some setting wrong or what.

Now I have gotten as far with DSDPlus as getting DSDPlus's scope to see the sound coming from SDRSHRP via the following bat file that I made bellow and VAC. But I still can't decode any digital voice. It maby because I don't know a digital voice transmission when I hear the raw transmission. This whole thing of digital voice and p25 trunking is new to me. I was in the business of fixing radios and tv's during the transfer from vacuum tubes to the 1st point to point transistor wiring.

-----------The bat file----------
echo
start cmd /k
cd C:\ham radio\sdr\dsdplus
dsd -i /dev/dsp -0 /dev/dsp -ft
-------
A ps. Please let me know if the sound tracks open and play right. They weren't working right in the preview post.
A 2nd ps. How do I make the lower waterfall (in yellow) wider so I can see the signal pattern better?

Steve
 

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kma371

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Links don't work for me

Use zoom to view the wave pattern better to see width
 

steve-kc7byp

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re: id'ing some strange sounds

How to I attach the sound files to this thread? Also I guss I am going to have to find some other site like Dropbox that is free. This isn't the 1st time the links have failed

Links don't work for me

Use zoom to view the wave pattern better to see width
 
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Markb

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Is it just me or is the filter bandwidth very narrow?
The 2nd sample sounds to me like a P25 control channel with the bandwidth choked way down.
Not sure about the first one. It would be helpful if you zoomed in on the signal so we can view the waveform/waterfall by playing with the "zoom" slider on the top right. Also check the filter width. Should be around 12500.

Mark

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steve-kc7byp

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re: id'ing some strange sounds

Wtp and Bm82557, can either of you id the sounds in the links? I have identified the control ch for a P25 signal by the waterfall pattern I saw online. But I haven't identified any P25 voice ch's or any digital voice transmissions. I know that the local taxi company is up in the 800mhz area on unincrepted digital voice ch. But I haven't found any web site with current info for the Tri-Cities, Wa area. All the web pages with any scanner freq info in it are the old analog freq's with a note about moving to the 800mhz P25 trunking setup.

There is 2 things about SDRsharp that bug me. SDRsharp only shows in the "input" menu just 1 "RTL-SDR (USB)". I have 2 RTL-SDR dongles. The idea when I 1st got them was 1 dongle for the control ch and the other for the voice ch. I haven't tried working on the P25 yet. I am doing 1 thing at a time. Which is to fig out the unincrepted digital voice mode 1st.
The other thing about SDRsharp is sometimes it will lockup and I have to shut the prog down and restart it.

both opened up in chrome and ie fine for me.
only guess is a wireless router.
 

Markb

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I use SDR Console. You can have multiple VFO'S (up to 64, I believe) and run multiple instances, each with different radios.

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mancow

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Your bandwidth is way too narrow. Anything will overmodulate at a 2.9 kHz bandwidth. Your signal is at around 50 db which is about right for a dongle but you might try messing with the range and contrast. The waterfall should generally be light blue or near black with signals showing as light blue to red at the extreme level. Total yellow is flying blind.
 

steve-kc7byp

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re: id'ing some strange sounds

To Mancow what should I set the bandwidth to?

To Markb I tried SDR Console and SDR Console won't see my dongles. All that is printed on my dongles is "terratec" and what looks like the old Columbia Broadcasting Company tv circle with an oblong outer circle around the outside of the inner circle and a horz line through the middle. By the way what does "dogle" mean? By the way SDRSharp was sitting in stop mode for a while and just crashed again. Windows 7 home 32bit pops up with a message saying that this prog has stopped working and has to be shut down.

Your bandwidth is way too narrow. Anything will overmodulate at a 2.9 kHz bandwidth. Your signal is at around 50 db which is about right for a dongle but you might try messing with the range and contrast. The waterfall should generally be light blue or near black with signals showing as light blue to red at the extreme level. Total yellow is flying blind.
 

mancow

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It depends on the signal. Try grabbing the edge of the shaded bar and adjust it to capture the signal width. Something like 11k should work fine, just as an arbitrary number. If you go too narrow you clip off the information in the signal. It's like holding the needle of a record player. It can't adjust back and forth to track the signal.

Terratec is a typical dongle maker. It's just a name. A dongle is just a nomenclature, like saying a mouse (computer mouse) or monitor or whatever. The terratecs are good RTL-USB dongles. You are fine with what you have, no issues there.
 

slicerwizard

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Just some observations:

- messed up bandwidth (as already noted)

- spectrum range is far too large - goes down to -100 when the noise floor is what, -55?

- waterfall contrast is way off (also already noted)

- using DSD instead of DSD+

- 804.452 MHz; not on a valid channel spacing and what's going to be there? Anything interesting/decodeable? IMO, OP should be looking at 450-455, 460-465, 769-775, 850-869, 935-941

- SDR# audio level is maxed out / sure to overdrive any digital decoder and trash 4 level decoding
 

steve-kc7byp

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re: id'ing some strange sounds

That is my problem. this technology and software is all new to me. The digital software that I know is like Hamscope, digital master, MMSTV, Winpsk31, jt65-hf and all the other sound card driven digital software that ether the audio (to and from) a transceiver like my IC-730 or via VAC to an internet controlled remote base. Regular police scanners I have no problems with. My electronics knowledge is somewhat dated. I was working on 2 way radios, cb radios back starting in the middle 70s up to the early 90s when my hands started shaking, micro hand tremors. I couldn't hold the soldering iron still anymore. I was messing up to many pc boards so I had to retire. I haven't been keeping up on all the advancements in technology. By the way I do have DSD+ not the regular DSD. I got the DSD+ right off the bat when I 1st started in this SDR radios.

Just some observations:

- messed up bandwidth (as already noted)

- spectrum range is far too large - goes down to -100 when the noise floor is what, -55?

- waterfall contrast is way off (also already noted)

- using DSD instead of DSD+

- 804.452 MHz; not on a valid channel spacing and what's going to be there? Anything interesting/decodeable? IMO, OP should be looking at 450-455, 460-465, 769-775, 850-869, 935-941

- SDR# audio level is maxed out / sure to overdrive any digital decoder and trash 4 level decoding
 

br0adband

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Let's try adjusting things so your SDR# installation is working better and it's more efficient for you too.

- obviously the basics in the settings (the gear icon) should be already resolved: pick a sampling rate you can use, it looks like you might be using 1.4 MHz which is fine, I use 1 MHz myself pretty much constantly. RTL AGC and Tuner AGC off, set the gain to maybe 36.4 dB as a start and adjust it sparingly as required - when you raise it the noise floor is going to come up along with the signal too. And obviously make sure your ppm is accurate, tune to your local NOAA weather frequency and zoom in the spectrum (top right hand corner control) so it's as centered on frequency as possible after about 15-20 mins.

- click the arrow icon in the Source section on the sidebar - you know which device you're using so no sense wasting space to remind you

- the Bandwidth should be set to about 8000 for almost anything (that's my opinion and I'm sure others have their own ideas on that one) using AM or NFM, WFM will obviously need more bandwidth but that's strictly used by FM radio stations and nothing else that I'm aware of. 8000 is an excellent starting point then you can adjust it sparingly as required but as noted above, that 2882 amount is not acceptable for anything in my experience

- enable the Snap to grid so you're following the band allocation stepping sizes, in this case the 850 MHz range uses 12.5 kHz stepping so you're on frequency. Having said that, a lot of businesses in the US are now moving to using DMR comm systems which use narrowband spacing of 6.25 kHz, and some NextEdge systems can and do use 3.125 kHz so you might find some digital stuff buried in between the "normal" stuff using 12.5 kHz. It makes tuning easier as well - the frequencies you're tuning in on in those screenshots are not anything that would be in use by entities with actual legal transmission licenses. Having said that, if you find yourself following the stepping of the band you're monitoring is accurate and yet you find a signal of some kind "in between" the allocation stepping, adjust it as necessary but remember that you've adjusted it in case you can't quite nail another frequency directly by tuning from the spectrum using the mouse, etc. I added the 3.125 kHz stepping as well as a 1.25 kHz stepping in my SDR# config file, it's easy to edit by just adding them. I did that because by default it doesn't cover the 3.125 kHz that some NXDN systems are using in my area so it's necessary.

- enable the Correct IQ setting - this will get rid of that center spike that RTL sticks are affected by. Better quality hardware like Airspy, HackRF, SDRPlay, BladeRF, etc, don't have that problem as far as I know. There's no sense seeing a signal spike dead center when there's nothing there and when you're tuning it's generally best to get the tuned frequency centered or close to it - if you note at the fringe edge on the left and right there's an area (noted by how the noise floor line slopes down to the edges of the spectrum) the signal drops considerably, like 5dB compared to the "main" noise floor which is roughly -50dB. You want to avoid trying to tune into anything on the fringe edges because they're most likely just ghost images of other frequencies and when you do attempt to tune them you'll get nothing at all

Because a lot of the other aspects are of a more personal nature like the spectrum and how it visualizes things and most importantly the waterfall which can really be important in determining something from a given signal, these remaining adjustments are just that: personal ones and you have to set it up for you the best way you like. Having said that, here's what I recommend which should make this software work better for you.

- The Zoom function I use sparingly and only when I'm trying to do something specific, the majority of the time I just leave it at the lower setting so the spectrum is "native" and unaltered

- the Contrast setting is perhaps the biggest and most important one of all. If you were to take a general glance at your screenshots above all that jumps out at you is that huge wall of yellow and that overpowers the idea of having a visual representation of the activity going on. Yes, there's some traces of red in there meaning signals but, to paraphrase an audible term you're "drowning out the signal in the noise" so adjust the contrast to a point where all you are going to visualize are the signals, not the noise. Here's a screenshot of how I set my waterfall just as an example - before I add it note that my Range setting is at a point where my noise floor is at the bottom of the spectrum.

As slicerwizard commented, if you know the noise floor (easy enough to see on the spectrum) there's zero reason to leave the Range setting at a point where half your vertical spectrum is showing you the noise floor - it's no good for anything down there in the noise, that's what the waterfall is for (to pick out signals from the noise). If you adjust your Range so that the noise floor is just barely visible as mine is you can then adjust the Contrast as well because those two settings are quite related. If I adjusted it to the next lower notch I'd only see a few peaks on the display so I keep the noise floor barely visible but that's just me. Anyway, I keep mine looking basically like this constantly:




Now, if I'd had the Range and Contrast up to the same or similar levels as you did in your screenshots, those signals would still be there obviously, I'd still see the peaks on the spectrum where they are but the visual representation of the signals would make it nearly impossible to make out exactly what they happen to be to any degree at all, and certainly the Morse Code 'decoding' by eye would be pretty much impossible for anyone save maybe Data from the Star Trek series/movies. :)

The point being: the whole idea of monitoring is to be able to listen, speaking from the audible sense. Now that we have these kinds of computer related tools for monitoring it's gone from being all audible to audible plus the visual so we can see what we're monitoring at a glance. After a period of time you develop the ability to know exactly what type of transmission (analog, digital and even what types of digital in use like P25, DMR, NXDN, etc) you're seeing at any given moment - that isn't very easy to do when the visual info is being "drowned out" by the noise as represented by the waterfall, once again.

And finally, as slicerwizard noted, bring that volume down to about 40-50% which is more than enough for DSD+ to really work great. DSD+ will show you not only on the info as it's scrolling by whether or not you have a lot of errors but also on the titlebar of the DSD+ window it shows a neat graphical scale of the decoding percentage (how well it's working based on the signal it's getting). If you get a lot of errors it could be caused by:

- excessive volume from SDR# as noted

- incorrect ppm setting (1 or 2 ppm either way can totally wreck a decode in progress - when I use OP25 under Linux even just 1 ppm can totally stop my ability to decode P25 Phase I or II, it's that precise in terms of what it can work with)

- not enough gain on the signal to begin with

All of these and even others are easily fixed but if you're "new" to this way of doing things then sure, there's a learning curve involved and it can be relatively steep for someone that has only used traditional scanners over the years and may not be that experienced with computers either (which may or may not be the case with you, steve-kc7byp, I'm just saying it in general).

Hopefully these tips will help improve your monitoring with SDR# and DSD+. If you don't already own an R820T2 based stick (the improved model with the temperature controlled oscillator upgrade) you might consider getting one. They're fairly cheap nowadays, RTL-SDR.com has some for only $25 and it comes with two antennas which is pretty nice. They are the preferred version of an RTL stick nowadays - I'm still stuck with the old original but very reliable NooElec sticks (I have two) and I hope to skip over newer low end sticks soon and jump straight to either an Airspy or an SDRPlay.

Good luck...

Edit: DOH, in the image I show the NXDN CC at 855.01625, it's actually 855.10625 so, in case nitpickers noticed I don't want to get creamed for it. :)
 
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steve-kc7byp

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In reference to the statement "The difference between genius and stupidity? Genius has limits." My farther was a very wise man and an inventor would say "The only stupid question is the question that doesn't get asked"
 

steve-kc7byp

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re: id'ing some strange sounds

Br0adband. 1st off I think the NOAA station WWF56 in Richland, Wa on 162.450mhz is having transmit problems. Normally NOAA just BOOMS in here. They transmit at 300 watts and I am only a few miles from the transmitter. Right now I hear NOAA both on the dongle and my portable service monitor at around 2 by 3 rst. Normally the rst is 5 by 20+.
As for the frequency correction (PPM) it is set to factory default 0. I also don't know were to find the PPM for this dongles that I have
I found a very strong what I think is a P25 control signal. You can hear it at this Dropbox link https://www.dropbox.com/s/w92raik7oaedzuf/strange sound 161-910.mp3?dl=0 and here is the SDRSharp screen capture. What do you think is this a P25 control ch?. As you can see it is a very strong signal. OOO I almost forgot. SDRSharp is reporting the freq at 161.905 mhz. My Icom IC-R3 receiver is reporting the same signal at 161.910 mhz. I am not sure if that is because the PPM isn't set right.


Let's try adjusting things so your SDR# installation is working better and it's more efficient for you too.

- obviously the basics in the settings (the gear icon) should be already resolved: pick a sampling rate you can use, it looks like you might be using 1.4 MHz which is fine, I use 1 MHz myself pretty much constantly. RTL AGC and Tuner AGC off, set the gain to maybe 36.4 dB as a start and adjust it sparingly as required - when you raise it the noise floor is going to come up along with the signal too. And obviously make sure your ppm is accurate, tune to your local NOAA weather frequency and zoom in the spectrum (top right hand corner control) so it's as centered on frequency as possible after about 15-20 mins.

- click the arrow icon in the Source section on the sidebar - you know which device you're using so no sense wasting space to remind you

- the Bandwidth should be set to about 8000 for almost anything (that's my opinion and I'm sure others have their own ideas on that one) using AM or NFM, WFM will obviously need more bandwidth but that's strictly used by FM radio stations and nothing else that I'm aware of. 8000 is an excellent starting point then you can adjust it sparingly as required but as noted above, that 2882 amount is not acceptable for anything in my experience

- enable the Snap to grid so you're following the band allocation stepping sizes, in this case the 850 MHz range uses 12.5 kHz stepping so you're on frequency. Having said that, a lot of businesses in the US are now moving to using DMR comm systems which use narrowband spacing of 6.25 kHz, and some NextEdge systems can and do use 3.125 kHz so you might find some digital stuff buried in between the "normal" stuff using 12.5 kHz. It makes tuning easier as well - the frequencies you're tuning in on in those screenshots are not anything that would be in use by entities with actual legal transmission licenses. Having said that, if you find yourself following the stepping of the band you're monitoring is accurate and yet you find a signal of some kind "in between" the allocation stepping, adjust it as necessary but remember that you've adjusted it in case you can't quite nail another frequency directly by tuning from the spectrum using the mouse, etc. I added the 3.125 kHz stepping as well as a 1.25 kHz stepping in my SDR# config file, it's easy to edit by just adding them. I did that because by default it doesn't cover the 3.125 kHz that some NXDN systems are using in my area so it's necessary.

- enable the Correct IQ setting - this will get rid of that center spike that RTL sticks are affected by. Better quality hardware like Airspy, HackRF, SDRPlay, BladeRF, etc, don't have that problem as far as I know. There's no sense seeing a signal spike dead center when there's nothing there and when you're tuning it's generally best to get the tuned frequency centered or close to it - if you note at the fringe edge on the left and right there's an area (noted by how the noise floor line slopes down to the edges of the spectrum) the signal drops considerably, like 5dB compared to the "main" noise floor which is roughly -50dB. You want to avoid trying to tune into anything on the fringe edges because they're most likely just ghost images of other frequencies and when you do attempt to tune them you'll get nothing at all

Because a lot of the other aspects are of a more personal nature like the spectrum and how it visualizes things and most importantly the waterfall which can really be important in determining something from a given signal, these remaining adjustments are just that: personal ones and you have to set it up for you the best way you like. Having said that, here's what I recommend which should make this software work better for you.

- The Zoom function I use sparingly and only when I'm trying to do something specific, the majority of the time I just leave it at the lower setting so the spectrum is "native" and unaltered

- the Contrast setting is perhaps the biggest and most important one of all. If you were to take a general glance at your screenshots above all that jumps out at you is that huge wall of yellow and that overpowers the idea of having a visual representation of the activity going on. Yes, there's some traces of red in there meaning signals but, to paraphrase an audible term you're "drowning out the signal in the noise" so adjust the contrast to a point where all you are going to visualize are the signals, not the noise. Here's a screenshot of how I set my waterfall just as an example - before I add it note that my Range setting is at a point where my noise floor is at the bottom of the spectrum.

As slicerwizard commented, if you know the noise floor (easy enough to see on the spectrum) there's zero reason to leave the Range setting at a point where half your vertical spectrum is showing you the noise floor - it's no good for anything down there in the noise, that's what the waterfall is for (to pick out signals from the noise). If you adjust your Range so that the noise floor is just barely visible as mine is you can then adjust the Contrast as well because those two settings are quite related. If I adjusted it to the next lower notch I'd only see a few peaks on the display so I keep the noise floor barely visible but that's just me. Anyway, I keep mine looking basically like this constantly:




Now, if I'd had the Range and Contrast up to the same or similar levels as you did in your screenshots, those signals would still be there obviously, I'd still see the peaks on the spectrum where they are but the visual representation of the signals would make it nearly impossible to make out exactly what they happen to be to any degree at all, and certainly the Morse Code 'decoding' by eye would be pretty much impossible for anyone save maybe Data from the Star Trek series/movies. :)

The point being: the whole idea of monitoring is to be able to listen, speaking from the audible sense. Now that we have these kinds of computer related tools for monitoring it's gone from being all audible to audible plus the visual so we can see what we're monitoring at a glance. After a period of time you develop the ability to know exactly what type of transmission (analog, digital and even what types of digital in use like P25, DMR, NXDN, etc) you're seeing at any given moment - that isn't very easy to do when the visual info is being "drowned out" by the noise as represented by the waterfall, once again.

And finally, as slicerwizard noted, bring that volume down to about 40-50% which is more than enough for DSD+ to really work great. DSD+ will show you not only on the info as it's scrolling by whether or not you have a lot of errors but also on the titlebar of the DSD+ window it shows a neat graphical scale of the decoding percentage (how well it's working based on the signal it's getting). If you get a lot of errors it could be caused by:

- excessive volume from SDR# as noted

- incorrect ppm setting (1 or 2 ppm either way can totally wreck a decode in progress - when I use OP25 under Linux even just 1 ppm can totally stop my ability to decode P25 Phase I or II, it's that precise in terms of what it can work with)

- not enough gain on the signal to begin with

All of these and even others are easily fixed but if you're "new" to this way of doing things then sure, there's a learning curve involved and it can be relatively steep for someone that has only used traditional scanners over the years and may not be that experienced with computers either (which may or may not be the case with you, steve-kc7byp, I'm just saying it in general).

Hopefully these tips will help improve your monitoring with SDR# and DSD+. If you don't already own an R820T2 based stick (the improved model with the temperature controlled oscillator upgrade) you might consider getting one. They're fairly cheap nowadays, RTL-SDR.com has some for only $25 and it comes with two antennas which is pretty nice. They are the preferred version of an RTL stick nowadays - I'm still stuck with the old original but very reliable NooElec sticks (I have two) and I hope to skip over newer low end sticks soon and jump straight to either an Airspy or an SDRPlay.

Good luck...

Edit: DOH, in the image I show the NXDN CC at 855.01625, it's actually 855.10625 so, in case nitpickers noticed I don't want to get creamed for it. :)
 

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slicerwizard

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As for the frequency correction (PPM) it is set to factory default 0. I also don't know were to find the PPM for this dongles that I have
Tune to a known active frequency and adjust PPM until you're properly centered on the signal.


I found a very strong what I think is a P25 control signal. You can hear it at this Dropbox link https://www.dropbox.com/s/w92raik7oaedzuf/strange sound 161-910.mp3?dl=0 and here is the SDRSharp screen capture. What do you think is this a P25 control ch?. As you can see it is a very strong signal.
No, it is not a P25 control channel. Use the RR database to figure out where you should be finding digital signals.


OOO I almost forgot. SDRSharp is reporting the freq at 161.905 mhz. My Icom IC-R3 receiver is reporting the same signal at 161.910 mhz. I am not sure if that is because the PPM isn't set right.
Yes, that is why. Tune to 161.91 and adjust PPM...

And there are no P25 control channels at 161 MHz. They'll be in the public safety bands.

BTW, your audio level is way too high and the bandwidth is also set too high.
 

steve-kc7byp

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re: id'ing some strange sounds

If that is not a P25 control signal. Then what is it? The RR database doesn't have much of any info for Benton county, WA

Tune to a known active frequency and adjust PPM until you're properly centered on the signal.


No, it is not a P25 control channel. Use the RR database to figure out where you should be finding digital signals.


Yes, that is why. Tune to 161.91 and adjust PPM...

And there are no P25 control channels at 161 MHz. They'll be in the public safety bands.

BTW, your audio level is way too high and the bandwidth is also set too high.
 

steve-kc7byp

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I got the SDRSharp working better. I tuned into the Pikes Peak ham repeater on 147.28 mhz because there was a QSO going on and adj the ppm so the freq is right on (PPM +50). The bandwith is set to 12000. That gives me the best signal and the lowest noise floor. Those settings have even got the NOAA station WWF56 in Richland, Wa on 162.450mhz up to a 4 by 7 rst with the crummy indoor antenna I am forced to use. And I got some more gain by using alligator clip test leads to connect the 2 little mag mount antennas that came with the dongles to about 45' of #20 solid copper wire tacked to my walls in the shack in an open end square loop antenna.
 

steve-kc7byp

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By the way what is the following filters bellow do?
hamming
blackman
blackman ham 4
blackman ham 7
hann poisson
youssef

Question is there a users guide available for SDRSharp?
 
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