FM notch filter worthwhile?

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crucialcolin

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Ok probably a dumb question but I'm wondering if it would benefit me to get an FM notch filter to go with my new LNA I just ordered? I have discovered I live within 4.6 miles of a 25 kW FM radio transmitter on 93.7 MHz according to fmfool.

Is it even necessary with my antenna setup a Centerfire ground plane with elements allready cut for VHF-hi(150)/UHF/800 MHz? Most of my monitoring is on the 800 band if that matters
 
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gmclam

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If you have an outdoor antenna feeding into an amplifier/multicoupler for "scanner reception", then certainly an FM trap (88-108MHz) is a great idea.
 

Ubbe

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It matters what scanner you have and what frequency band you use and how high signals the LNA can handle without adding noise due to overload. Most FM broadcast filters attenuate some of the airband 118MHz and up. If you monitor a 800MHz frequency the filter in the scanner would attenuate most of the signals below 600MHz and very much so the FM broadcast band and extra filtering are not neccesary.

Most of my scanners benefit from a FM trap filter when I monitor low-vhf at 80MHz but I guess you do not monitor that band.

/Ubbe
 

iMONITOR

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Ok probably a dumb question but I'm wondering if it would benefit me to get an FM notch filter to go with my new LNA I just ordered? I have discovered I live within 4.6 miles of a 25 kW FM radio transmitter on 93.7 MHz according to fmfool.

Is it even necessary with my antenna setup a Centerfire ground plane with elements allready cut for VHF-hi(150)/UHF/800 MHz? Most of my monitoring is on the 800 band if that matters

An FM Notch Filter is normally used to block interference from FM broadcast stations that are interfering with reception of the VHF aircraft band.

I doubt it would do anything to improve monitoring the 800 MHz band.

An antenna, regardless of what frequency it is cut (tuned) for does very little to block interference from other bands/frequencies.
 

prcguy

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Doing a little calculation for free space loss between you and your local FM station, if they are putting out 25kW into a 6dBd gain antenna and figuring -10dB gain for your Centerfire thing, that would be around -20dBm out of your antenna for just the FM station. That's big and the results could be 10-20dB lower or up to 6dB higher depending on terrain and ground bounce. Add a bunch of local pager transmitters, cell phone towers, amateur repeaters, public service repeaters, etc, and that is probably enough to push most little preamps into IMD land which will affect ALL frequencies you monitor.

I would suggest putting an FM trap in front of your LNA.
 

dlwtrunked

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An FM Notch Filter is normally used to block interference from FM broadcast stations that are interfering with reception of the VHF aircraft band.

I doubt it would do anything to improve monitoring the 800 MHz band.

An antenna, regardless of what frequency it is cut (tuned) for does very little to block interference from other bands/frequencies.

Strong FM broadcasts will generate intermod on lots of frequencies and de-sense receivers far away from the FM broadcast band. They are often used for that rather than to avoid interference on the VHF air band. Mostly this will occur in the high VHF band and sometimes if close enough, the 3rd harmonic shows up in the UHF aero band (a moderate power FM broadcast station 0.8 miles from here does that).
 
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iMONITOR

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Are strong pager systems still the big problem they used to be? I don't hear much discussion about them these days. However, I see PARR still list several filters for dealing with them.
 

devicelab

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Normally I'd agree, but if you start connecting numerous filters in series, I'm pretty certain signal loss would become a concern, correct?

If you're using them on an external antenna then it's a moot point. I use the PAR filter and a 11th order FM trap filter full-time. I have several bandpass filters for specific bands if I want to crank up the gain of my SDR.
 

Ubbe

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Each filter attenuate at least 1-2dB each on all frequencies. 3dB means you loose half your signal as if your antenna got cut in half. Depending of what scanner you have, what antenna you use, how high signal levels you have, what frequency you are monitoring, will affect the result if you gain those dB back by filtering out an interfering signal.

I have three 60kW FM broadcast transmitters 5 miles from me and there's four others at 20kW and six HD tv transmitters at 470MHz and higher of unknown power in that same tower. Only the 68-88MHz band are affected in my scanners as that pre-filter in most scanners covers 50-108MHz, and the airband and other frequencies are not noticable affected by the transmitters. I use several $30-$40 LNA's in my setup that can handle +20dBm signals.

/Ubbe
 

kruser

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Are strong pager systems still the big problem they used to be? I don't hear much discussion about them these days. However, I see PARR still list several filters for dealing with them.

Yes, VHF paging is brutal here!
Several transmitters all simulcasting the same paging signal kill many scanning type radio front ends here. Uniden's usually handle this very well but unfortunately, the new SDS100 does not handle it. Paging wipes out most chances of reception of our statewide P25 system which is also on VHF and uses channels in the same 152 range that most paging falls in here.
Notch filters such as PAR sells do not help the SDS100 as they also reduce the useable signal that you are after.
The older x36HP models actually work much better as they seem to have much better selectivity over the SDS100.
Most all GRE designs are useless here without FM broadcast filters AND VHF paging band filters.
It does not help that I live within a stone's throw of at least three tall hospitals that all have high power VHF paging transmitters that run darn near 24x7. Filters are a must for scanners as well as some commercial and amateur stations in this area.
 

dlwtrunked

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Each filter attenuate at least 1-2dB each on all frequencies. 3dB means you loose half your signal as if your antenna got cut in half. Depending of what scanner you have, what antenna you use, how high signal levels you have, what frequency you are monitoring, will affect the result if you gain those dB back by filtering out an interfering signal.

I have three 60kW FM broadcast transmitters 5 miles from me and there's four others at 20kW and six HD tv transmitters at 470MHz and higher of unknown power in that same tower. Only the 68-88MHz band are affected in my scanners as that pre-filter in most scanners covers 50-108MHz, and the airband and other frequencies are not noticable affected by the transmitters. I use several $30-$40 LNA's in my setup that can handle +20dBm signals.

/Ubbe

I measure my fiolters using the appropriate equipment. Generally, if I can measure 2 dB away (say 10 MHz) from the notch frequency, I throw it away (and have done that regularly as expense).

I also use multiple filters and LNA's (commercial ones over $100). I have 2 FM broadcasters near me (one at 0.8 mi and the other at 3 miles). Even without the LNA, the filters would be needed as I listen to a wide range of frequencies and find problems if there are any. Even though you cannot hear the FM broadcasters when listening in the 150 and 160 MHz area, the receivers are de-sensed without the filters or suffer from intermod or harmonics (note: these are good receivers, including an ICOM R9500). And yes, there are still some of us who have VHF high band pagers nearby. Filtering those without affecting nearby frequencies of interest is a challenge.

My usual configuration is two FM broadcast notch filters, then depending on what I am doing, ones for 152 MHz paging, 2 meters (a local amateur repeater is on the tower at 0.8 mi), and a local VHF-Hi FD repeater. If I am focusing on VHF aero, I use a band-pass filter for that (made by Rockwell). These are in front of a good LNA (>$100). It took time, experimentation, and of course money, to find a satisfactory combination that is local dependent. Some make the mistake of not wanting to notch something they want to hear--often that is a local that is going to get through anyway and notching it will help hear things away from that frequency that may be of interest. And of course, I use multiple antennas, with different notches.
(Adding the caveat that antenna height should always be a first goal.)

I consider yearly visiting the LNA-notch configuration part of what one needs to do if one is serious about optimizing the set-up.
 

crucialcolin

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My thinking had been that the Antenna design might have some natural filtering itself being cut for specific bands over a general purpose discone.

I guess I should say for myself, I'm not sure whether the price tag is worth it or not. It seems like USA based sources of SMA FM Notch Filters are drying up. In fact I was looking at putting an RTL filter before my RTL LNA at the antenna but international shipping would clbe more then device itself. Can't see spending $40-$50 on something unknown in terms of boosting reception.
 

crucialcolin

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This is what fmfool shows for my address btw.
 

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devicelab

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Huh? You can buy a decent FM trap filter for $17 and a higher quality filter for $25-30 range. Heck you can build a filter for about $10 (or less) if you can solder.
 

vagrant

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My thinking had been that the Antenna design might have some natural filtering itself being cut for specific bands over a general purpose discone.

I guess I should say for myself, I'm not sure whether the price tag is worth it or not. It seems like USA based sources of SMA FM Notch Filters are drying up. In fact I was looking at putting an RTL filter before my RTL LNA at the antenna but international shipping would clbe more then device itself. Can't see spending $40-$50 on something unknown in terms of boosting reception.
I understand your note better now after I saw that the RTL-SDR FM filter was unavailable. I have one and it works well. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LE9LRPM/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Another option, which you may be aware of, is this HPN-30118 filter for $50. It worked well enough that I purchased a second one. About eight years later the RTL-SDR filter I noted above came on the market.
https://www.scannermaster.com/HPN_30118_Combined_Notch_Filter_p/24-531024.htm

For the price difference, I would wait. RTL-SDR noted there is a delay due to the holiday in China. I expect it will not be in stock until November some time, based on other shipments I have coming in from China and their extended delivery date.
 

devicelab

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Another option, which you may be aware of, is this HPN-30118 filter for $50. It worked well enough that I purchased a second one. About eight years later the RTL-SDR filter I noted above came on the market.

The HPN has a nice packaging but the filtering isn't that special.

Of course you could always buy this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Broadcast-FM-Block-Filter-88-108-MHz-Block-by-RTL-SDR-Blog/113279638024

I love the test plots on E-Bay. You can find the same measurement plot for multiple products. Total BS. The RTL-SDR filter is around the 50 DB range... It's no where near 65 DB.
 

vagrant

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True about the HPN, but 10 years ago it was an easy store bought fix that handled both my AM and FM issues without additional connectors/adapters.

ha $300! I did not think to check eBay. I should sell mine along with my super duper Scantenna!

Well, it appears that my November guestimate is what RTL-SDR posted on their eBay page for the item. November 2 - 14.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Broadcast-...m=282265486654&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
 
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