nd5y
Member
Wichita Falls P25 system went off the air at about 3:15 pm.
FD is using 8CALL90.
PD is using 8TAC91.
FD is using 8CALL90.
PD is using 8TAC91.
Wichita Falls P25 system down
- Thread starter nd5y
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nd5y
Member
System came back on the air at 3:32.
FireJustin
Member
This has been happening in Lubbock on the regular - twice in the last week.
nd5y
Member
When the Lubbock system crashes and comes back up have you noticed if it has different RFSS and site numbers?
Normally this system is RFSS 10 Site 10 (scanners show it as site 1010). This is the second time I have seen it crash in the past few months and when the control channel comes back on the air it shows RFSS 11 Site 11 for a while before it goes back to normal.
Normally this system is RFSS 10 Site 10 (scanners show it as site 1010). This is the second time I have seen it crash in the past few months and when the control channel comes back on the air it shows RFSS 11 Site 11 for a while before it goes back to normal.
FireJustin
Member
I've seen it go to 11 on two different occasions, and once I think a simulcast issue caused it to go to 11 and 12.
FireJustin
Member
Way too much to have the connectivity issues. . . Sitting in a fire station, getting a call to monitor 8Tac91 . . . Or having to use a cell to call dispatch. . . .
FireJustin
Member
From my understanding, the zetron gets data via a 800mhz conventional radio in each station (frequency listed in database). Backup happens to be the Phase-II system with a radio in each station piped to the overhead speakers, a talkgroup for each station as well as a talkgroup for each battalion. Fireground operations are on the Phase-II system as well. We have plenty of places that the radios don't work inside (dorm buildings, basements, large warehouses to name a few). If the members remember to change the radios (and remember how), backup fireground communications are on 8Tac channels.
EDIT: It's sad to say, the EDACS system that we all loathed at the time was actually BETTER than this....
EDIT: It's sad to say, the EDACS system that we all loathed at the time was actually BETTER than this....
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Conroe, Texas at one time had an EDACS and new P25 simulcast system operating at the same time. There were areas where P25 didn't work in buildings. Not sure if they ever did anything about it.
Using P25 repeater/simulcast for fireground is too dangerous. You guys really should not be doing that. If they want to hear what is going on elsewhere, get a vehicle repeater system or some other way to upload the fireground communications.
https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-pr...n-Houston-firefighters-families-sue-Motorola/
The sad irony of all of this is that these radio system monies were supposed to be because of 9/11, where a lot of firefighters didn't receive evacuation commands. And now billions of dollars later, the radios still don't work for firefighting.
There are too many single point failures in these systems compared to simplex analog, and they are not reliable enough in coverage--and it's not possible to check every nook and corner and basement of the "coverage" area to see where it will and will not work in advance of needing it for mission critical communications.
Using P25 repeater/simulcast for fireground is too dangerous. You guys really should not be doing that. If they want to hear what is going on elsewhere, get a vehicle repeater system or some other way to upload the fireground communications.
https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-pr...n-Houston-firefighters-families-sue-Motorola/
The sad irony of all of this is that these radio system monies were supposed to be because of 9/11, where a lot of firefighters didn't receive evacuation commands. And now billions of dollars later, the radios still don't work for firefighting.
There are too many single point failures in these systems compared to simplex analog, and they are not reliable enough in coverage--and it's not possible to check every nook and corner and basement of the "coverage" area to see where it will and will not work in advance of needing it for mission critical communications.
nd5y
Member
On the Wichita Falls P25 system fire station alerting is displayed as "emergency" data iCalls to the stations in Unitrunker followed by voice announcements on the main dispatch talkgroup. I don't know what kind of system it is. I don't think there is a backup system. I think when the trunked system goes down they can put the station radios on 8CALL90-8TAC94. I don't know if they still have all 5 interop repeaters now.
Back when they had the EDACS system I used to hear fireground comms on 8TAC95D sometimes but I haven't heard that since they went P25 over a year ago. Now I think they use trunked talkgroup for everything.
I have no idea if ALL the FD trunked radios have any other analog or simplex capability besides 8CALL90-8TAC94. Some of the FD is part of a wildland taskforce and some of the apparatus have VHF radios but I don't think dispatch does. They are still licensed for 154.43 but I have never heard anything on it since the 1990's when they left that for UHF.
Back when they had the EDACS system I used to hear fireground comms on 8TAC95D sometimes but I haven't heard that since they went P25 over a year ago. Now I think they use trunked talkgroup for everything.
I have no idea if ALL the FD trunked radios have any other analog or simplex capability besides 8CALL90-8TAC94. Some of the FD is part of a wildland taskforce and some of the apparatus have VHF radios but I don't think dispatch does. They are still licensed for 154.43 but I have never heard anything on it since the 1990's when they left that for UHF.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Irony, fireground operates on P25 (conventional and trunking) all over the GATTRS system and they have very few issues with it. I can actually thing of few departments that have analog fireground frequencies (Oakalla VFD is one as they are in the Lampasas/Bell/Burnet tri-county area).
Funny thing about that lawsuit article. Motorola wasn't declared liable (if you actually read the findings). The department was actually declared liable due to the use of aftermarket RSM's which failed in the fire due to not meeting Motorola's specs. That was listed as the primary cause. Secondary was improper training on how to actually use the radios.It's been almost a year and a half since I've read the findings though.
Here's a good read about some testing done around Fairfax County Virginia and shows some effects of different situations.
Portable Radio Placement
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NFPA1221 is the standard for fire service radio systems. There is no requirement to follow it, but it's designed to provide optimal communications.
It specifies analog, non trunked communications for operations and analog simplex for fire ground. The later is often ignored. I know of two fire departments that uses a very sophisticated P25 Phase 1 system for dispatch and operations, but have analog 800 Mhz channels for fire ground use. Others use analog conventional for everything.
NFPA standards are generally related to Insurance Service Office (ISO) ratings and that has an effect on home owner's insurance rates.
The more complex a radio system, the more points of failure there are.
Trunked systems have been around for close to 30 years (maybe more), and it took a long time for them to become reliable. Each new technology has teething problems that take time to solve.
If I were the King of public safety radio systems, I'd require all non public safety radio users to move off of VHF or UHF and on to 700, 800, or 900 Mhz sytems. I'm not, so it will never happen, but UHF and VHF have a lot of advantages built in.
It specifies analog, non trunked communications for operations and analog simplex for fire ground. The later is often ignored. I know of two fire departments that uses a very sophisticated P25 Phase 1 system for dispatch and operations, but have analog 800 Mhz channels for fire ground use. Others use analog conventional for everything.
NFPA standards are generally related to Insurance Service Office (ISO) ratings and that has an effect on home owner's insurance rates.
The more complex a radio system, the more points of failure there are.
Trunked systems have been around for close to 30 years (maybe more), and it took a long time for them to become reliable. Each new technology has teething problems that take time to solve.
If I were the King of public safety radio systems, I'd require all non public safety radio users to move off of VHF or UHF and on to 700, 800, or 900 Mhz sytems. I'm not, so it will never happen, but UHF and VHF have a lot of advantages built in.
28056
Member
It's still too big of a chance.
Inside of a burning building is no place for repeaters or digital. I don't care how much work they have done to make digital more reliable, they are still trying to get it up to analog standards for reliability in that environment. Scratchy analog is better than a dead digital signal.
Why are aircraft still on AM?
As for firefighters who are not radio people or trained well, I can remember in the good old days of having to remind the IC that we should probably switch to the simplex fireground channel, or at least the simplex output of the dispatch repeater. That was outside, with no obstructions (on the beach) Derp....
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That recommendation was removed several revisions ago. P25 and trunking are OK for fireground per the most recent 1221.
Why are aircraft still on AM?
Because at this point in time it truly would be an logisitical apocalypse to try to replace millions of radios worldwide. A far worse headache than just the nightmare with going NXDN on the railorads in JUST THE USA... And in military aviation there is mixed usage of analog AM on VHF and UHF, as well as analog, digital, and encryption on FM.... But changes that were called sci fi a few years back are starting to roll out in the aviation comms world... A lot slower than in ground comms, but its happening.
Because at this point in time it truly would be an logisitical apocalypse to try to replace millions of radios worldwide. A far worse headache than just the nightmare with going NXDN on the railorads in JUST THE USA... And in military aviation there is mixed usage of analog AM on VHF and UHF, as well as analog, digital, and encryption on FM.... But changes that were called sci fi a few years back are starting to roll out in the aviation comms world... A lot slower than in ground comms, but its happening.
Actually, aircraft still use AM because it doesn't have the "Capture Effect."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_effect
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
You're both right. Aviation radio technology pre-date's FM's commonplace use in terms of two way and there are aircraft still making daily flights that have been in service for 80+ years now.
The issue with this statement, simplex comms (analog or digital) aren't going to work when you have a large scale structure fire or high acreage brush/forest fire regardless of whether or not it's analog or digital. We're talking guys on the line of a burn where you are measuring the burn in tens of thousands of acres or a 41st story fire on a 50 story building.
That being said, every current generation radio I've tested either performs identically when digital is compared to analog or better when digital is compared to analog (for conventional operations). I've seen some issues where brand A doesn't perform on trunking like brand B but conventional has a fairly level playing field.
28056
Member
How often are most firefighters battling fires covering tens of thousands of acres or 50 story buildings?
In limited times, the IC can decide to use a repeated fireground channel. For most times, conventional should be used. If the tower is three miles away and the IC is 100 feet away, I'd take my chance of the IC hearing me direct.
FireJustin
Member
I have to agree with the above. I have a lengthy history in wildland fire as well, and even though there are different challenges, communications always seem to work themselves out - mobile repeaters, human repeaters, and the use of aircraft. Regardless, I feel it's more dangerous to lose coverage inside a building as opposed to out in the sticks... At least out there we had escape routes and safety zones or solid black to jump into. . . Lack of communications typically didn't present itself with life-ending consequences.
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