152.690 & 158.700 license search?

[kruser]

I started experiencing higher than normal levels of signal from at least one of the two paging frequencies listed in the title in my area of midwest St. Louis County, MO.
So I went to do a FCC license search and was going to try and determine the transmitter locations but I cannot for the life of me, find any license associated with either frequency in this area.
They are typical pocsag paging signals and each is an exact simulcast of the other so I'm hit with a double whammy.
I must now use PAR filters for the 152 and 158 MHz range which sucks as there are also several low signal level stations that I used to monitor in the same ranges.
I can still run the Icom R7000 or 9000 without the PAR filters as it is immune to the signals but forget about it with a GRE and a Uniden.
The Unidens are not as bad but the signals kill a GRE due to desensitization.
Even with the PAR filters, the paging signals are still getting into the GRE's full time and sometimes into the Unidens. Using the attenuator feature on either brand will eliminate it finally but then I have no sensitivity left for my weaker public service stations.

Anyway, can someone explain why these stations are not showing up with an FCC license search?
Or does anyone know how I can determine the user and locations?

Surely they are licensed stations as they have been on the air for as long as I can remember. Did the FCC make a change maybe that masks these paging channels from a typical search. I seem to remember another service that is setup to where you could not do a direct frequency search as they fell under some blanket license or something. Maybe something to do with channels used by pro sports teams is what I'm remembering.

I used to have a pager on 158.700 years ago when it was Cybertel, Ameritech or SBC Paging but now I have no idea who the transmitters are licensed to. I'm fairly certain they are on top of all the hospitals all around me and maybe they installed new antennas with more gain that has raised the signal levels for me to the point the PAR filters are not quite enough. The PAR filters used to do an excellent job but I only ever needed the 152 filter. I also cannot say if the 152 and 158 signals were always simulcast with one another. That may be what changed if they just started doing that recently. They run a high duty cycle so they transmit very often 24 hours per day so they are very active signals.
I did test the PAR filters and they have not been bumped off their notch frequencies and still attenuate the designed range as they should.
I was hoping to determine the exact transmitter locations so I could maybe use a VHF yagi aimed away from the sites and still get the public service stations of interest but I'm not going to build a yagi unless I know I may have a chance of this working.

Thanks everyone.

 

[W8RMH]

I started experiencing higher than normal levels of signal from at least one of the two paging frequencies listed in the title in my area of midwest St. Louis County, MO.
So I went to do a FCC license search and was going to try and determine the transmitter locations but I cannot for the life of me, find any license associated with either frequency in this area.
They are typical pocsag paging signals and each is an exact simulcast of the other so I'm hit with a double whammy.
I must now use PAR filters for the 152 and 158 MHz range which sucks as there are also several low signal level stations that I used to monitor in the same ranges.
I can still run the Icom R7000 or 9000 without the PAR filters as it is immune to the signals but forget about it with a GRE and a Uniden.
The Unidens are not as bad but the signals kill a GRE due to desensitization.
Even with the PAR filters, the paging signals are still getting into the GRE's full time and sometimes into the Unidens. Using the attenuator feature on either brand will eliminate it finally but then I have no sensitivity left for my weaker public service stations.

Anyway, can someone explain why these stations are not showing up with an FCC license search?
Or does anyone know how I can determine the user and locations?

Surely they are licensed stations as they have been on the air for as long as I can remember. Did the FCC make a change maybe that masks these paging channels from a typical search. I seem to remember another service that is setup to where you could not do a direct frequency search as they fell under some blanket license or something. Maybe something to do with channels used by pro sports teams is what I'm remembering.

I used to have a pager on 158.700 years ago when it was Cybertel, Ameritech or SBC Paging but now I have no idea who the transmitters are licensed to. I'm fairly certain they are on top of all the hospitals all around me and maybe they installed new antennas with more gain that has raised the signal levels for me to the point the PAR filters are not quite enough. The PAR filters used to do an excellent job but I only ever needed the 152 filter. I also cannot say if the 152 and 158 signals were always simulcast with one another. That may be what changed if they just started doing that recently. They run a high duty cycle so they transmit very often 24 hours per day so they are very active signals.
I did test the PAR filters and they have not been bumped off their notch frequencies and still attenuate the designed range as they should.
I was hoping to determine the exact transmitter locations so I could maybe use a VHF yagi aimed away from the sites and still get the public service stations of interest but I'm not going to build a yagi unless I know I may have a chance of this working.

Thanks everyone.

I found numerous FCC licenses in MO alone for these frequencies.

158.700

152.690

It doesn't matter where the licensee is located. They can use these frequencies anywhere they do business.

 

[kruser]

I found numerous FCC licenses in MO alone for these frequencies.

158.700

152.690

It doesn't matter where the licensee is located. They can use these frequencies anywhere they do business.

That is correct but in the past they still had to list info for each transmitter site with frequencies and power levels as well as emmision data.
I saw all the same info you posted before my post.
None of the results turned up anything near here and the signals I hear are within a mile or two.
Well, they have now "auctioned" parts of the paging bands and licenses are given by market area unlike the old days where they all showed up exactly like the links you posted.
That seems to be gone today and all you can get is a general market area with no transmitter coordinates or power levels or anything.
I did find actual callsigns for the two frequencies in use near me but that was it. WVPE800 and WPVH886 but no info of use should either of those statons be causing interference to a licensed service nearby. They have gone through ownership changes recently so maybe they will be required to again list physical coordinates once the pending applications are complete. Why do some of the companies (Joplin Beepers) links give the info I was seeking but the ones I found today do not? Was there a change in the data that is available to the public? I don't know but it sure is not like it was just a year or two back.
In the least, they should have CW ID broadcast in the clear but that is not the case here. They have a CW ID of CHC581 on the hour which means nothing. Tell me what CHC581 means.
How is one to contact the owner or operator if no data can be found that indicates the transmitter that may be causing interference to other licensed services.
I can remember being able to lookup each and every Nextel tower as well as any other cell tower using several methods but that info also seems to be dissappearing slowly. Most public safety is still the same and shows true location, power and emmisions but somnething has changed with paging services. They don't show jack unless you happen upon some older info such as what you found in your searchs.
That's what I'm talking about, the data available to you, the public, is missing most of the details that would help you ID that station should it be interfering with your very own licensed radio service.
In the past, if you heard a station that was interfering with your station, you just listened until you heard a verbal call or automated CW ID and then looked that up and found whom to contact.
As it is now, if 152.690 or 158.700 where interfering with my station, I'd have no way of knowing who the operator is of either of those stations as they do not broadcast a verbal call and only broadcast a CW ID of CHC581 which is not a valid FCC call. Even trunked digital P25 sytems broadcast a CWID in the clear in analog mode. You can look that call up and determine the location and power levels and whom to contact if they are causing problems. I see no reason that Joplin Beepers should not be doing the same especially for a service that is known to cause problems due to there high duty cycles and full bandwidth and modulation schemes.
They used to be required to show this data but something has changed and now they are covered by a "market area" so that useful data is no more. Go look. Punch in the calls I listed above and tell me where the transmitters are located. And I only found those calls by doing a geo search which does get me close. The next step would be DF equipment if I really want to know the exact transmitter locations.
I've now figured out enough info that I'll just try other means to correct my reception problems but I feel that a service that has the potential to interfere with other land based LMR services should give their true coordinates and other relevent info in case they do cause interference to a licensed service. Why are they hiding it now under some market area license? TV and am/fm broadcast stations are licensed under a market area but they must still give accurate location data as to the transmitters and any relay stations. I have a repeater that I've had for years that is only 200 Khz away from one of these paging stations. If they interfere with my licensed repeater operation, whom do I notify? And how do I tell them which transmitter is causing the problem if they do not ID with an FCC callsign?
Something just does not seem right!

Thanks for your input regardless as it confirmed that I did not miss anything when I did my initial searches.

 

[Mtnrider]

For 152.690

Site / Frequency / Market Search Results

 

[Mtnrider]

For 158.700

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/General_Me...ortstring=,+lic_name,+file_num&limit_select=4

 

[Starcom21]

Part 22 VHF/UHF Paging (excluding 931MHz) License - WPVE800 - JOPLIN BEEPERS, INC.

MainAdminMarket
Call Sign WPVE800 Radio Service CP - Part 22 VHF/UHF Paging (excluding 931MHz)
Market BEA096 - St. Louis, MO-IL
Channel Block FN
Associated Frequencies (MHz) 000152.67500000-000152.70500000
000157.93500000-000157.96500000

----------------------------

Part 22 VHF/UHF Paging (excluding 931MHz) License - WPVH886 - JOPLIN BEEPERS, INC.

MainAdminMarket
Call Sign WPVH886 Radio Service CP - Part 22 VHF/UHF Paging (excluding 931MHz)
Market BEA096 - St. Louis, MO-IL
Channel Block ED
Associated Frequencies (MHz) 000158.69000000-000158.71000000

 

[kruser]

For 158.700

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/General_Me...ortstring=,+lic_name,+file_num&limit_select=4

I've ran those searches before. The company (Joplin Beepers) is correct but none of the transmitter locations as shown in the typical search like you did are the ones near me.
I'm talking signal levels outside my front door. +60 over S9 on the Icom's.
Full strength and you can pickup both with a grounded antenna input.

They both are going to fall under the calls WPVE800 and WPVH886 which are the same listings that Terry (Starcom21) came up with. I'd already ran an GEO based search and found them but I still do not know the exact locations of the transmitters.
Nothing under the two calls listed above give actual transmitter locations.
Maybe one day they will show up under the general search that you ran with location data and all but I wonder. I know for a fact that both of these systems have been on the air for many many years. They changed ownership sometime back and then the frequencies went up for auction in which Joplin Beepers was the winner and is now listed as the licensee.

I could use a geo search with really tight parameters using the locations I assume they are located and that may find them but I suspect they have simulcast towers on nearly all the tall hospitals near me and I don't feel like figuring out the lat/long of each tall building around here and trying to guess which building they are on.

I do appreciate everyone's attempt at a search but it is all the same as I ended up finding.

I'd still like to use a yagi beam aimed away from the strongest of the bunch instead of using notch filters but I'm afraid that is not going to work. The signal levels kill the GRE scanners due to desensitization but the Unidens can handle it usually. I doubt a yagi is going to reduce the signal levels enough even when aimed 90 degrees off of the true heading of the paging signals. The levels are just too strong for a typical scanner receiver and some amateur transceivers that have complete VHF band coverage.
As I stated before, the Icom R7000 and R9000 are both immune from any overload or desense from these signals so I can at least use those radios for single analog VHF reception.
When MOSWIN comes online, I have a feeling I'll be SOL for picking up any of the VHF sites in the sorrounding counties around me as they are using a bunch of channels that do fall smack dab in between the paging bands channels. I hope they use tight radios for the sites near the paging towers!
I have a VHF repeater with its output on 152.xxx MHz and the Motorola PR400 portables do not experience any desense or overload from the paging sites. And I'm even closer to the paging towers than I am at home here so the PR400 portables must have some damn good and tight front ends in them. I've set some of them to CSQ just to see if I'd hear the paging signals getting into them but nothing at all. They work as well as my two good Icom receivers really. I also have an Icom R2500 but I have not tested it yet since they started simulcasting the paging broadcast on both 152.690 and 158.700.

The bad thing is that I'll need to use PAR notch filters when using the scanners for any of the nearby VHF MOSWIN sites. The PAR filters will reduce the sensitivity on and above and below their center frequencies which may be just enough to not receive a neighboring counties VHF MOSWIN site. If I don't use the PAR filters, I may as well sell all the GRE radios as they will be useless due to their stupid oversensitive front ends.
They still work for the 700 and higher systems though although they have issues from a nearby Nextel tower!
Then I have the Uniden scanners. They work decent with or without the PAR filters but the paging crud will get in and mix and cause intermod on them when scanning analog VHF channels without a PAR filter. I'm worried that some of the MOSWIN channels will experience intermod forcing me to use PAR filters which may reduce the MOSWIN sites signal levels to a point that I cannot get enough signal for decent decoding.
Then the Uniden's suck for simulcast P25 reception. I work around that using a yagi beam aimed at one of the towers. That works pretty well really and I can usually get them working better than the GRE's on 800 P25 sites.

When the VHF paging sites are on the air, the signal meter bargraph in the GRE's will show full bars! Throw a PAR filter inline and the signal meters drop off to nothing on most vhf frequencies that are programmed but some still show 50% to 100% signal bars. Those are the frequencies where mixing is occuring and you will hear intermod if you open the squelch. Throw two PARs inline and I can get the signal from the paging systems down low enough to where the GRE's work as they should again and very few channels show ghost signals on the bargraph meter.
By then, any weak stations are gone forever as the combined filters attenuate too much signal even 2 MHz above or below the PAR's center frequency.
So it sucks living near paging transmitters. They cause all kinds of hell with your typical scanning receiver due to the front end design found in scanners. If they could build them with the same specs as some of the Icom receivers, they would work fantastic but nobody would be able to afford them and that would be the end of companies like GRE and Uniden making scanners.

I may still try my VHF yagi idea if I can positively ID the actual locations of the paging antennas.
I'd guess a yagi has somewhat of a Null point much like a magnetic HF loop antenna has. If I can null out the paging signals by just a few dB, I may get lucky and not need any PAR filters as the signal null may be just enough to allow the scanner front ends to cope with the paging signals without desensitizing. That was my plan anyway but now that I cannot determine the true location of the paging antennas, it may not be worth the trouble as I suspect each frequency has several locations in this immediate area so nulling may be impossible.

 

[kruser]

Part 22 VHF/UHF Paging (excluding 931MHz) License - WPVE800 - JOPLIN BEEPERS, INC.


Part 22 VHF/UHF Paging (excluding 931MHz) License - WPVH886 - JOPLIN BEEPERS, INC.

So Terry,

Do you think either of these licenses (call signs) will ever show the actual transmitter locations like is shown in the searches that Mtnrider ran above?

I suspect not as they are licensed under a "market area" license.
With that type of license, I'd think they could have several transmitters running on the same frequency within the designated "market area".
Are my assumptions correct?

As they are listed now under a market area, it could take days and days to input test coordinates and try and find other transmitter locations away from my center point. Especially if I wanted to find the locations of all the transmitters they are running on these two frequencies within the entire market area. The market area that Joplin Beepers acquired at auction is huge and runs darn near to the bootheel of the state!