2020 MACS 441-1 - California fire mutual aid channel load

[rsmith7799]

Good morning, so I talked with the LP Comm. Tech (Patrick Marty) after he posted the 217a for the Forest. He doesn't have the RX tones because he says they are already in the radio. That made no sense to me. So I rewrote the 217a for Patrick with the RX tones. The reason I did that was because if you are coming in on Mutual Aid, you won't be able hear any of the RX transmissions, since most Departments run with tones on both sides.

I will reach out to my LA County boys and get an answer on the LARTCS protocols just to clear it all up.

 

[KK6ZTE]

Good morning, so I talked with the LP Comm. Tech (Patrick Marty) after he posted the 217a for the Forest. He doesn't have the RX tones because he says they are already in the radio. That made no sense to me. So I rewrote the 217a for Patrick with the RX tones. The reason I did that was because if you are coming in on Mutual Aid, you won't be able hear any of the RX transmissions, since most Departments run with tones on both sides.

I will reach out to my LA County boys and get an answer on the LARTCS protocols just to clear it all up.

Are you saying if you don't have the RX tones in your radio, you won't hear the transmissions if they have a tone on the output? That doesn't seem right...

 

[Paysonscanner]

Good morning, so I talked with the LP Comm. Tech (Patrick Marty) after he posted the 217a for the Forest. He doesn't have the RX tones because he says they are already in the radio. That made no sense to me. So I rewrote the 217a for Patrick with the RX tones. The reason I did that was because if you are coming in on Mutual Aid, you won't be able hear any of the RX transmissions, since most Departments run with tones on both sides.

I will reach out to my LA County boys and get an answer on the LARTCS protocols just to clear it all up.

Good morning to you also! I don't know what a 217a is, can you explain?

My understanding that if there isn't a RX tone in the radio, you hear everything, regardless of the tone. That is how my late Hubby's volunteer fire department Bendix-King radio worked. I still have the BK radio we owned and we listened to all the forests, parks and BLM nets without a RX tone programmed into them. On national forests where the repeater input tone is transmitted on the output also, the mobiles and handhelds in the field don't have individual channels for each repeater, along with that repeater's output tone programmed, the channel has no tone for RX on the forest and admin repeater net access channels. The direct forest/admin channels (usually 1 and 3) don't have RX or TX tones on them either, except in SOCAL. The radio receives everything TXed on those frequencies.

We took Hubby's FD handheld to SOCAL once and heard Angeles, San Bernardino and Cleveland traffic with Mexican interference as well. We also heard traffic on those nets, plus the NIFC nets getting this interference. Someone on these nets was complaining that, and this is a quote, not what I said, "boy, the Julios are real strong tonight, I couldn't copy you." This back about 20-30 years ago. I think that is why NIFC is now assigning a RX tone for all command and tactical frequencies used when a NIFC system is setup on a fire. I saw that somewhere in my sweetie's notebooks. It was also to reduce interference from NIFC systems set up on other fires in the area. Since then we always programmed 103.5 into our SOCAL scanner, ham handhelds and the BK's we brought with us, no more Mexico traffic.

It would seem like any mutual aid radios brought into an area without RX tones will be on CSQ and will hear everything on the freq. A RX tone is not mandatory, even on the radios the home unit has. Am I missing something here? The document we are discussing here doesn't have the Inyo's, the Sierra's, the Eldorado's RX tones shown in them, it would seem like that is a good indicator that my understanding is correct.

 

[Paysonscanner]

I forgot to mention that late Hubby took an volunteer fire dept. engine to fires around the state multiple times and he said the mutual aid program in the dept.'s radios did not have RX tones in them. This for the USFS specifically, except 103.5 was used on the Forest/Admin Nets in SOCAL. However, he was still able to program his personal BK radio if there weren't enough handhelds for each member of the engine crew and he often forgot to program 103.5 on the RX side. He didn't notice a problem with receiving those forests, but if Mexican traffic started coming in, it would remind him of his oversight.

EDIT - we sometimes left out the RX tone on our scanners for National Forests like the Eldorado and Inyo (they both TX the input tone on the output) because we didn't want to eat up memory by programming each channel with the output tone for each repeater. We left it on CSQ and had a list or memorized the RX tone to associate it with a repeater. I don't think scanners work any differently for RX than the BK's and mobiles the USFS has.

 

[Progline]

I'm not sure what's up with LARTCS, I havent heard traffic on it in a loooong time, and am not even sure it still exists. It was used for aux comms for one fire, right after it went online (the Oat Mtn site as I recall), but since then, nada.

 

[f40ph]

Good morning to you also! I don't know what a 217a is, can you explain?

"217a" is the ICS217A form. This is simply a communications "availability" worksheet. Typically this is the method used to share information between agencies before the incident. While the ICS205 is an actual incident comm plan. Now that you have the proper name, you can google it and see plenty of examples.

 

[ScannerDude244]

I'm listening to the riverfire they are using 173.0375 which is NIFC CMD 12, but they are calling it NIFC CMD 5?

 

[Paysonscanner]

I'm listening to the riverfire they are using 173.0375 which is NIFC CMD 12, but they are calling it NIFC CMD 5?

Where is the River Fire? It must be new as it doesn't show up on InciWeb. As to calling Command 12, Command 5, that happens when a comm plan is used to clone all the incident radios. They might set up a command net, all repeaters being linked via 400 MHz, with NIFC CMD 12 in channel 5, NIFC CMD 3 in channel 4 and NIFC CMD 8 in channel 3. On the air they will refer to the channel they are on, rather than the actual NIFC command frequency pair name. In this case they will likely call it Command 3 when referring to what is actually NIFC CMD 8. If they didn't do this, the command nets would get all confused. A radio user, if they heard "Command 12" would have to look at the comm plan to figure out CMD 12 is in channel 5. I hope this helps, I'm having trouble thinking this morning, I had to wake up several times last night to help both of my parents.

 

[KK6ZTE]

Where is the River Fire? It must be new as it doesn't show up on InciWeb. As to calling Command 12, Command 5, that happens when a comm plan is used to clone all the incident radios. They might set up a command net, all repeaters being linked via 400 MHz, with NIFC CMD 12 in channel 5, NIFC CMD 3 in channel 4 and NIFC CMD 8 in channel 3. On the air they will refer to the channel they are on, rather than the actual NIFC command frequency pair name. In this case they will likely call it Command 3 when referring to what is actually NIFC CMD 8. If they didn't do this, the command nets would get all confused. A radio user, if they heard "Command 12" would have to look at the comm plan to figure out CMD 12 is in channel 5. I hope this helps, I'm having trouble thinking this morning, I had to wake up several times last night to help both of my parents.

They were specifically calling it NIFC CMD 5 with Tone 5. I heard the traffic as well.

You're not supposed to call a frequency anything other than it's proper alpha tag to prevent confusion and preventable accidents.

The River Fire is a 10k plus beast that started a couple days ago near Mt Toro and has filled SLO and Santa Barbara counties with tons of low hanging smoke.

 

[Paysonscanner]

They were specifically calling it NIFC CMD 5 with Tone 5. I heard the traffic as well.

You're not supposed to call a frequency anything other than it's proper alpha tag to prevent confusion and preventable accidents.

The River Fire is a 10k plus beast that started a couple days ago near Mt Toro and has filled SLO and Santa Barbara counties with tons of low hanging smoke.

Thanks for the info. I guess it doesn't show up on InciWeb because it is not a federal fire. I could not access the Cal Fire website this am for some unknown reason.

I see commands put in various channels on IAP's all the time. I suppose they should say, "Command Channel 5," but I've always heard them say "Command 5" when referring to the channel, regardless of which NIFC command pair is programmed in the radio. I think the channel is less confusing since everyone is using the same cloned program on the fire. If a comm plan and cloning is not in place, due to it being a new fire that is beyond initial attack then absolutely the proper NIFC or other channel designation should be pronounced. Various agencies may have their NIFC command/tac in different groups and they might have a different channel order than the other agencies. That is when confusion would take place.

 

[KK6ZTE]

I'm listening to the riverfire they are using 173.0375 which is NIFC CMD 12, but they are calling it NIFC CMD 5?

Oh I almost forgot, the NIFC command repeaters are low power and can be linked together, so you're likely hearing someone going in on 5 and coming out on 12.

 

[ScannerDude244]

Oh I almost forgot, the NIFC command repeaters are low power and can be linked together, so you're likely hearing someone going in on 5 and coming out on 12.

That's what I was thinking I heard comm tech talking on NIFC CMD 32 coming out 12 still. I guess they put a CMD site on each branch

EDIT: any have NIFC CMD 31 and 32 frequencies?

 

[Paysonscanner]

Oh I almost forgot, the NIFC command repeaters are low power and can be linked together, so you're likely hearing someone going in on 5 and coming out on 12.

Correction, you would not be using NIFC Command 5 at all, this has nothing to do with that actual NIFC command repeater pair. The NIFC Command 12 repeater pair is programmed in Channel 5 on the incident specific comm plan that is cloned into all handhelds used on the fire. Since it is in Channel 5 and is part of the command net, people refer to it as "Command 5" at times. Nearly 98% of the time they will just state "command" when they key it up. Some fires only have to use 1 repeater for command. On larger fires 1 repeater won't provide coverage to all portions of a fire. In that case the comm unit figures out where to put repeaters to cover all of it, while choosing locations where the repeaters can be linked together by 400 meg frequencies. The NIFC has (16) 400 meg frequency pairs for linking command repeaters together. I think it was the comm plan for the Sobranes (?) fire near Big Sur that had 5 or more command repeaters linked together. The result is a command net that is "multicast." Whatever traffic is transmitted on 1 repeater is transmitted simultaneously on all the repeaters, each with a different NIFC command frequency pair. Some national parks are doing this for the main "park net" (and other nets at the same park) so that no matter where someone is they hear all the traffic. Even better someone in once corner of a park can speak with someone at another corner of the park, who are completely out of range from each other and the repeater that each can use.

Some comm plans will have NIFC Command 7 in Channel 1, NIFC Command 3 in Channel 2 and NIFC Command 11 in Channel 3. They don't have the opportunity to program NIFC Command 1 in Channel 1, NIFC Command 2 in Channel 2. . . . . . . This because of the way the NIFC system is assigned to each incident. Another fire may already be using NIFC Command 1 and NIFC Command 6 so the next fire can't use these or cause interference. It may sound sort of random from our perspective, but NIFC keeps track of it all and make the frequency assignments accordingly.

It's likely that most handhelds have a group with 16 NIFC cache frequencies in it. They usually have Commands 1-12 in the first 12 channels, followed by the 6 NIFC tac frequencies. This group is designed for resources arriving at a large fire that is spreading rapidly who don't have time to get their radios cloned to the incident comm plan before being sent to a division of the fire right after they check in. At the end of their shift they then have time to clone all of them. They usually have time to get the incident comm plan as they roll to their assignment so they know that their channel 12 is programmed as channel 5 on the incident. Last summer I was fixing up a family second home for sale and the guy next door told me about being sent from 1 fire to a new one, rolling Code 3 on Southern CA freeways, through road blocks and arriving at the ICP to find out they had an immediate assignment, so he (as crew boss) would sign in and then grab a copy of the comm plan and program his own radio while someone else drove his rig. As soon as they arrived he would quickly clone the remainder of the crew's radios. He carried a BK cloning cable in his glove box at all times.

 

[Paysonscanner]

That's what I was thinking I heard comm tech talking on NIFC CMD 32 coming out 12 still. I guess they put a CMD site on each branch

EDIT: any have NIFC CMD 31 and 32 frequencies?

I will explain this later, I have to take Daddy to a medical appointment now and am running late. I'll try to get back to you later today, if possible.

 

[ScannerDude244]

Could this be 172.550 NIFC CMD 31?

 

[norcalscan]

Could this be 172.550 NIFC CMD 31?

Good find. Yes this year CMD31 is on 172.550. (they change each year.) That portable repeater is located on Chews Ridge. NIFC Cmd8 is up on Palo Escrito and NIFC Cmd5 is on Lower Toro. These are all low power portable repeaters so it's a great time to test your RX capabilities; sometimes we're too used to 120W ERP from 5000ft mountain tops 80 miles away we forget how to pull in the tiny signals and make the antenna do some actual work.

 

[f40ph]

I'm looking at the RIVER ZONE comm plan for the Carmel, CA area of the "Lightning complex."
They show NIFC CMD5 and NIFC CMD12 with the normal freqs as stated in the RR database.

 

[ScannerDude244]

I got Palo Escrito on my Feed Palo Escrito is up above Soledad and about to be on fire in next few hours

 

[ScannerDude244]

I'm looking at the RIVER ZONE comm plan.
They show NIFC CMD5 and NIFC CMD12 with the normal freqs as stated in the RR database.

Can you share the comm plan?

 

[Paysonscanner]

Good find. Yes this year CMD31 is on 172.550. (they change each year.) That portable repeater is located on Chews Ridge. NIFC Cmd8 is up on Palo Escrito and NIFC Cmd5 is on Lower Toro. These are all low power portable repeaters so it's a great time to test your RX capabilities; sometimes we're too used to 120W ERP from 5000ft mountain tops 80 miles away we forget how to pull in the tiny signals and make the antenna do some actual work.

Thanks for answering his question, I got interrupted. In the past a lot of people were reporting their observations of the freqs used for Commands 13 and higher. Sometimes the same frequencies would be used for a few years in a row. Here is the deal with them. When NIFC finds themselves out of frequencies and need more they will choose from the pool of unused federal frequencies in the area of a fire. These might be FBI, Customs, Federal Highway Administration, EPA and others. They then make a one time assignment for those freqs not to exceed the time frame of the incident itself. In the following years, the other agencies may start using them or drop the use of others. Sometimes nothing changes and they use what had been used in that area in past years, keeping the same "Command 27," "Command 62" designation from a few years back or not.

These unused freqs can be used for air to ground, air to air tactics (FM) and tactical as well. If additional air to air (AM) freqs are needed NIFC works with the FAA. Every AM freq is only assigned on a yearly basis, no guarantee for coming years. Each year the FAA gives NIFC a small pool of freqs they can use when they run out of them. Beyond that they have to work through them for short term assignments.

When these short term assignments are made it makes it challenging to listen to large incidents. One scanner has to be devoted to searching while another scans the permanent NIFC system. Occasionally new frequency use is announced on the radio, particularly air operations frequencies. Most of the time freq changes become effective at the beginning of a new shift, mostly at the start of day shift, announced at morning briefings and shown in everyone's Incident Action Plan, in the ICS205 form Comm Plan. Federal IAP.s are not posted on the internet, but most of the time they are for state agencies, since their freq use is covered by publicly available FCC licenses.