3 New technologies to save firefighter lives
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Great idea, but poor design
Imagine yourself crawling through the undergrowth, or feeling your way out of a smoke filled building with wires and ceiling grids down around you with that grappling hook bolted to your SCBA.
Great concept that bears further development, but one that I can see being mandated too soon by people who have never gotten their hands dirty, much less had any form of SCBA or entanglement training. Hopefully the in-service versions will have a quick-release or break away. Even better, streamline the whole package so it is not a personal safety liability to carry.
Until then, I'll pass, thank-you.
And another thing. Quote: "When firefighters enter a building or a wildfire they “vanish off the map” in the words of DHS S&T -- meaning a GPS satellite signal cannot follow them. Most firefighters also still use analog radio signals, which have problems getting through concrete, tunnels, forest and smoke-filled structures."
Please do your homework! Don't rely on manufacturer and vendor information. Look at the volumes of end-user and NFPA research showing that plain vanilla analog is the preferred medium for short range tactical operations, and the death and injury statistics where reliance on technically complex systems (digital, trunking, etc.) has caused responder bad days.
VHF does well in rough terrain and vegetation, but has issues in buildings. 7/800 does well in buildings but performs poorly in rough terrain and vegetation. 450UHF has the advantages and disadvantages of both depending on the phase of the moon and other imponderables. Those are simple laws of radio energy propagation and have nothing to do with being a digital or analog emission. Analog is never perfect, but will always come though with something 99.9% of the time. Digital is always perfect... when it works at all, and delivers the desired voice instead of background noise, barking K9's, PASS alarm screeches, garbled voice port translation or just plain garbage.
Keep the digital and trunking systems for where they work best: Command and Control coordination where you have the luxury or repeating or delaying radio traffic. Don't apply one-size-fits-all high-tech-is-always-better thinking to life and safety critical tactical communications where a failure or 30-second delay may result in a missed MAYDAY or EVACUATION message.
Imagine yourself crawling through the undergrowth, or feeling your way out of a smoke filled building with wires and ceiling grids down around you with that grappling hook bolted to your SCBA.
Great concept that bears further development, but one that I can see being mandated too soon by people who have never gotten their hands dirty, much less had any form of SCBA or entanglement training. Hopefully the in-service versions will have a quick-release or break away. Even better, streamline the whole package so it is not a personal safety liability to carry.
Until then, I'll pass, thank-you.
And another thing. Quote: "When firefighters enter a building or a wildfire they “vanish off the map” in the words of DHS S&T -- meaning a GPS satellite signal cannot follow them. Most firefighters also still use analog radio signals, which have problems getting through concrete, tunnels, forest and smoke-filled structures."
Please do your homework! Don't rely on manufacturer and vendor information. Look at the volumes of end-user and NFPA research showing that plain vanilla analog is the preferred medium for short range tactical operations, and the death and injury statistics where reliance on technically complex systems (digital, trunking, etc.) has caused responder bad days.
VHF does well in rough terrain and vegetation, but has issues in buildings. 7/800 does well in buildings but performs poorly in rough terrain and vegetation. 450UHF has the advantages and disadvantages of both depending on the phase of the moon and other imponderables. Those are simple laws of radio energy propagation and have nothing to do with being a digital or analog emission. Analog is never perfect, but will always come though with something 99.9% of the time. Digital is always perfect... when it works at all, and delivers the desired voice instead of background noise, barking K9's, PASS alarm screeches, garbled voice port translation or just plain garbage.
Keep the digital and trunking systems for where they work best: Command and Control coordination where you have the luxury or repeating or delaying radio traffic. Don't apply one-size-fits-all high-tech-is-always-better thinking to life and safety critical tactical communications where a failure or 30-second delay may result in a missed MAYDAY or EVACUATION message.
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kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
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Yea RF is RF, digital or not. And it looks like a bunch of heavy equipment, that looks like it will get in the way, added to an already heavy load... Oh and 3ft resolution could put someone in another room, or even on another floor... Gotta love gagets that are designed by people with out a clue... What ever happened to KISS?
Yea RF is RF, digital or not. And it looks like a bunch of heavy equipment, that looks like it will get in the way, added to an already heavy load... Oh and 3ft resolution could put someone in another room, or even on another floor... Gotta love gagets that are designed by people with out a clue... What ever happened to KISS?
Hot
Hope it can withstand temp's from 900 to 1400 degrees. Even at 400 degrees, average - estimated temp while fighting inside structure fire, and that is from a safe distance. It get's hot real quick, when in doubt, pull out, one of the first thing's you are taught at fire fighting.
Hope it can withstand temp's from 900 to 1400 degrees. Even at 400 degrees, average - estimated temp while fighting inside structure fire, and that is from a safe distance. It get's hot real quick, when in doubt, pull out, one of the first thing's you are taught at fire fighting.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
There is a lot of federal grant money out there for people who can use high technology to solve emergency response issues. The federal government is being pushed to do this by demands from congress.
So, you get congress pushing for a solution to a problem they don't understand, and throwing money at it so they can show they are trying, and that we should re-elect them.
Big companies like Motorola, Harris, Cisco want a slice of this federal money.
Expect more things like this to come down the road, sort of like P25 and interoperability. Complex, expensive, pushed by the government and generally disliked by those that have to use it.
There is certainly no shortage of people out there that think their own little take on technology is what the world needs to fix all the issues. I've personally had issues with Cisco trying to cram solutions down our throat that don't work and show their complete lack of understanding of the issues. Disappointing.
So, you get congress pushing for a solution to a problem they don't understand, and throwing money at it so they can show they are trying, and that we should re-elect them.
Big companies like Motorola, Harris, Cisco want a slice of this federal money.
Expect more things like this to come down the road, sort of like P25 and interoperability. Complex, expensive, pushed by the government and generally disliked by those that have to use it.
There is certainly no shortage of people out there that think their own little take on technology is what the world needs to fix all the issues. I've personally had issues with Cisco trying to cram solutions down our throat that don't work and show their complete lack of understanding of the issues. Disappointing.
What about RFID and GPS?
IIRC Worcester Polytechnical Institute (WPI in Worcester Mass) has been receiving federal grants for the last 10 years or more to solve this fire service issue. Maybe $1 million per year.
Tuesday, August 8, 2006
Seeking solutions to a life-saving issue
WPI conference on ways to rescue rescuers
By Martin Luttrell TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF
Benjamin Woodacre, a graduate student, demonstrates his group's precision personnel locating system, for finding emergency personnel, during a workshop at WPI. (T&G / PAUL KAPTEYN)
Enlarge photo
It’s an even harder problem than we thought three years ago.
John A. Orr,
ENGINEERING PROFESSOR
WORCESTER— The dozen wooden stands placed next to the brick walls of Kaven Hall at Worcester Polytechnic Institute didn’t draw much attention from passers-by yesterday. But the small antennas on each were picking up a signal from a transmitter in a basement room and showing its location on the screen of a laptop computer eagerly viewed by researchers.
That prototype of what is called a precision personnel locating tracking system is being perfected by a team at WPI. Hopes are that it will be commercially ready in a year or so for use by firefighters and other public safety personnel who go into burning buildings or other hazardous situations. Firefighters would wear a small transponder that would indicate where they are so command staff could keep track of them — or rescue them, if necessary.
Tuesday, August 8, 2006
Seeking solutions to a life-saving issue
WPI conference on ways to rescue rescuers
By Martin Luttrell TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF
Benjamin Woodacre, a graduate student, demonstrates his group's precision personnel locating system, for finding emergency personnel, during a workshop at WPI. (T&G / PAUL KAPTEYN)
Enlarge photo
It’s an even harder problem than we thought three years ago.
John A. Orr,
ENGINEERING PROFESSOR
WORCESTER— The dozen wooden stands placed next to the brick walls of Kaven Hall at Worcester Polytechnic Institute didn’t draw much attention from passers-by yesterday. But the small antennas on each were picking up a signal from a transmitter in a basement room and showing its location on the screen of a laptop computer eagerly viewed by researchers.
That prototype of what is called a precision personnel locating tracking system is being perfected by a team at WPI. Hopes are that it will be commercially ready in a year or so for use by firefighters and other public safety personnel who go into burning buildings or other hazardous situations. Firefighters would wear a small transponder that would indicate where they are so command staff could keep track of them — or rescue them, if necessary.
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A little levity looking at the concept...
I'm not knocking the concept at all; auto-location of responders, be they inside a structure or spread out over a wildland fire area is a very good idea that bears common-sense development. Fire-service hardening of the package, and engineering into a smaller more manageable size with no entanglement hazards are warranted.
Also, keep in mind that after arriving at a fully involved structure fire, the priorities are searching/clearing the building of victims, then fire suppression. With manpower cuts, where does setting up a triangulation/tracking antenna system fit into the picture? Any implementation has to be simple, or even better automatic. Otherwise it will fall into the "Round To It" list of things to do.
My big issue is with the misinformation provided by media sources who don't do their homework, and the general push by the uninformed and the unqualified to throw money at an under-developed (or in many cases over -developed) solution just because it's new.
When I first looked at the original news item, I was reminded of this essential product. I wonder how many were actually placed in daily service:
It's small, about the size of a microwave oven, lightweight at only 15 pounds, and has almost a one mile range!
Quote: "In use they will enable a fire chief to talk to smoke eaters at work inside a burning building."
Concept: Excellent.
Implementation: Further development came up with a better solution.
I'm not knocking the concept at all; auto-location of responders, be they inside a structure or spread out over a wildland fire area is a very good idea that bears common-sense development. Fire-service hardening of the package, and engineering into a smaller more manageable size with no entanglement hazards are warranted.
Also, keep in mind that after arriving at a fully involved structure fire, the priorities are searching/clearing the building of victims, then fire suppression. With manpower cuts, where does setting up a triangulation/tracking antenna system fit into the picture? Any implementation has to be simple, or even better automatic. Otherwise it will fall into the "Round To It" list of things to do.
My big issue is with the misinformation provided by media sources who don't do their homework, and the general push by the uninformed and the unqualified to throw money at an under-developed (or in many cases over -developed) solution just because it's new.
When I first looked at the original news item, I was reminded of this essential product. I wonder how many were actually placed in daily service:
It's small, about the size of a microwave oven, lightweight at only 15 pounds, and has almost a one mile range!
Quote: "In use they will enable a fire chief to talk to smoke eaters at work inside a burning building."
Concept: Excellent.
Implementation: Further development came up with a better solution.
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N5TWB
Member
jeatock - Two excellent posts, especially the first one about digital not being the "be-all, end-all" solution, as well as there is no one "best" frequency band for all situations.
The illustration for your second post was an interesting find.
The illustration for your second post was an interesting find.
More frivolity
I've had this "training video" bouncing around in my collection of "fire porn" for years, and have to share. In some ways it is similar to the subject of this thread.
Phoenix Fire Dept 800MHz Radio Training
Aside from being hilarious, it is a parody on how well-meaning but uniformed and uneducated upper management types source and deploy essential equipment.
It's also an example of the camels being proposed. What's a camel, you ask?
cam·el (noun) \ˈka-məl\
1) either of two large ruminant mammals (genus Camelus) used as draft and saddle animals in desert regions especially of Africa and Asia.
-or-
2) a horse designed by a committee or government commission.
I've had this "training video" bouncing around in my collection of "fire porn" for years, and have to share. In some ways it is similar to the subject of this thread.
Phoenix Fire Dept 800MHz Radio Training
Aside from being hilarious, it is a parody on how well-meaning but uniformed and uneducated upper management types source and deploy essential equipment.
It's also an example of the camels being proposed. What's a camel, you ask?
cam·el (noun) \ˈka-məl\
1) either of two large ruminant mammals (genus Camelus) used as draft and saddle animals in desert regions especially of Africa and Asia.
-or-
2) a horse designed by a committee or government commission.
Maybe in the future they could develope this smaller, like the size of a cell phone. Have to give them some credit, they are at least thinking of those who put their lives on the line. I rather see this type of Fedral Grant money go to this than other useless studies, and I'm sure we can think of hundred's of them.
My stomach hurts from laughing so hard. It's as hilarious as the first time I saw it, never gets old, especially the part where he turns around to reveal all the speaker mics. :lol:
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