39.46 use throughout NYS

[902]

I thought I saw something wrong on one of the applications I skimmed past, but after digging a little deeper, I'm seeing quite a number of licensees on 39.46 MHz (which RR lists as an Intersystem in New York State) holding some sort of digital emission that could be a variant of P25 Phase I. It runs from Chautauqua County all the way east to Nassau County, so it's not just a pocket of operation.

I know Daniels makes a base station that can be ordered in P25 on low band, but a question for you guys living there, is this real, or is it just a case of one application putting it on and everyone else copying it?

If everyone were really running P25 on 39.46, it would be neat, but very, very rare (the only ones in the country that I'm aware of).

 

[n2ops]

39.46

39.46 is analog in Western NY with 206.5 PL.

 

[Alarms50]

39.46MHz is also designated as LLAW1D of the NIFOG Interoperable Frequencies http://www.safecomprogram.gov/SiteCollectionDocuments/NIFOGversion14RotatedForViewing.pdf (see page 25). According to this document there is no NAC assigned for any of the Low Band Freq's for P25 usage.

 

[902]

The funny thing is that some communities are removing their analog emissions on this frequency and replacing them with 8K10... emissions, or ...F1E emissions. Many of those are doing it to high band frequencies on their licenses, too. There is more than one case of poorly informed forms preparers who have tried to bring their clients into compliance (at least with paperwork) and have "narrowbanded" their clients' low band systems. That either forces the clients to turn down the deviation to comply, or make them operate out of their licensed parameters.

You just never know, though. Especially when there are over a dozen just that do the same thing.

When the NPSTC working group came up with identifying the other non-CALL/TAC frequencies, they were envisioning a CTCSS of 156.7 Hz (tracking the FCC's "official" tone on 800) for analog and $293 (the out-of-the-box) NAC for P25 Phase I conventional. In the real world, at least as far as the 8CAL/TAC frequencies go, having the same CTCSS on a number of system inputs doesn't foster universal interoperability. It creates lots of heterodynes and makes the systems virtually unusable if the incident isn't within the capture area of one repeater or another. It only works if you can turn the unused repeaters on and off remotely.

 

[DaveNF2G]

The other "reality" is that 39.46 is barely used at all any more, except in the Southern Tier area.

 

[SCPD]

I remember this being labeled "Intercounty Sheriff Network" on paperwork here in Herkimer County. Much like 45.88 in New York State was once known as "Intercounty Fire Mutual Aid" (and is still used somewhat mostly for 911 centers to relay brief messages to each other), I think 39.46 served the same purpose for sheriff departments. At one time many county sheriff depts were on low band. I can remember when Oneida County Sheriff were on 39.22 back in the late 1970s.

So think of 39.46 like the low band version of 155.370.
We are licensed for 39.46 in Herkimer County but there is no equipment in place for that frequency that I'm aware of....


John

 

[Mtnrider]

Interesting enough the NYSP has a pending app with FCC...there still licensing 39.46 while adding a host of other freqs and repeaters

ULS Application - Public Safety Pool, Conventional - 0005707590 - NEW YORK,STATE OF - DIVISION OF STATE POLICE

 

[DaveNF2G]

39.46 was the real "point to point" channel. Base to base only, like 45.88.

155.370 was the "intersystem" channel and could be used by bases but was originally preferred to be a mobile frequency, more like 46.22.

Some dispatchers in the western part of the state, which always had a "frontier" approach to statewide planning, habitually (and incorrectly) referred to 155.370 as "Point to Point." Some of the more populated counties did not even have 39.46, or never used it for its intended purpose.

(SteveC might recall this - IIRC 39.46 could only be used from Radio Center on Cobbs Hill. OEC at the Public Safety Building had no connection to the transmitter or receiver.)

 

[902]

Thanks guys!

 

[ai8o]

There is more than one case of poorly informed forms preparers who have tried to bring their clients into compliance (at least with paperwork) and have "narrowbanded" their clients' low band systems.

Why are they "narrowbanding" 39.46 MHz??

Narrowbanding only applies to Part 90 frequencies between 150 and 470 MHz....

 

[W5TXR]

39.46

As a former field Motorola Sr. technician in NYS, I suspect it is an application error. (S)low band does not need to be narrowband. I suspect 39.460 will always be in place as a "Old reliable" back-up in case the other options do not work. My cousin works as a dispatcher in Yates County and they have 39.46 equipment in place.

-Mark A. Lacy
Schertz, TX

 

[k2hz]

Some dispatchers in the western part of the state, which always had a "frontier" approach to statewide planning, habitually (and incorrectly) referred to 155.370 as "Point to Point."

Dave,

I don't know if you were around in the late 60s when Monroe County used 155.370 strictly as an intercom between the Sheriff's dispatcher at the Jail, other Town and Village PD dispatchers, and the Cobbs Hill Radio Center dispatcher. It was called "Point to Point" and the use was strictly controlled. Use by the surrounding counties was discouraged and they were expected to use the 39.46 "Sheriff's Net" to communicate between themselves and Monroe.

Before the County 911 Center existed, all Sheriff's and Town cars were dispatched by Radio Center on 159.210 but the public calls were taken at the Jail or Town PDs who would tell Radio Center over 155.370 the call and what unit to dispatch. When I first came to Rochester in 1966 and heard this I thought it was due to some remote control problem with the 159.210 base but this was normal operations. Also, 159.210 was repeater capable but repeater (called "3-way") operation was prohibited except in an emergency so Radio Center had to relay all car to car messages.

This procedure was apparently political, with Sheriff Al Skinner being very opposed to use of the repeater. If Radio Center had "3-way" up there would usually soon be an angry "295 to Radio, turn off that 3-way" from Sheriff Al.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I started monitoring toward the end of the Sheriff Al days, so my recollections are quite vague and incomplete. I first started listening to airplanes, then to fire calls, so my familiarity with police communications came about just before the introduction of UHF in Monroe County.

I have heard the "turn off that 3-way" stories before, too. Some of my colleagues at OEC were transfers from Radio Center and had been on the receiving end.

 

[SteveC0625]

This procedure was apparently political, with Sheriff Al Skinner being very opposed to use of the repeater. If Radio Center had "3-way" up there would usually soon be an angry "295 to Radio, turn off that 3-way" from Sheriff Al.

He was very, very opposed to any NYSP presence in the county and felt by keeping the repeater off the air that he was strongly limiting their ability to monitor his operation.

 

[902]

He was very, very opposed to any NYSP presence in the county and felt by keeping the repeater off the air that he was strongly limiting their ability to monitor his operation.

I wonder if this control thing was one of the reasons for Monroe County being licensed nationwide on many of the UHF frequencies. Seems just about every search I do for UHF frequencies, I come up with a Monroe, County of, in it.

 

[SteveC0625]

I wonder if this control thing was one of the reasons for Monroe County being licensed nationwide on many of the UHF frequencies. Seems just about every search I do for UHF frequencies, I come up with a Monroe, County of, in it.

Doubtful that it's the same control thing. Al Skinner was Sheriff in the 1950's and 1960's and the climate has totally changed there since that time.

Is it always Monroe County, NY on those licenses? There are other Monroe Counties around the country.

 

[902]

There is more than one case of poorly informed forms preparers who have tried to bring their clients into compliance (at least with paperwork) and have "narrowbanded" their clients' low band systems.

Why are they "narrowbanding" 39.46 MHz??

Narrowbanding only applies to Part 90 frequencies between 150 and 470 MHz....

Well... the short answer is they're probably not. This is pretty common, especially on licenses that have more than low band frequencies on them. Some dipsy doodle who only works in radio but otherwise couldn't tell one from a toaster oven probably gave them a price quote to narrowband everything on the license... and the other person couldn't provide specific direction not to do LB. It comes up a lot in other parts of the country where LB is still used a lot. What was unique about this one is that it was adding a digital emission. I've spoken with Daniels Electronics, and they could make a P25 low band station for the asking. They're all modular, so they plug in the modules and there it is. That would have been special, because it would probably have been the first one around. But no one would make LB digital subscriber equipment, which is a shame. This is probably a mistake, or a "give me one of each..." Now, that creates a situation where operating normally now falls outside of the tolerances on the license... but that's a whole other can of worms.

Mark, I'm 100% with you on LB being ol' reliable. It just has no marketing. The big boys of industry won't make any money selling something that you can plug in and not have to constantly sell upgraded firmware on, or make obsolete after 18 mos. They learned that lesson on Motracs and MASTR PROs (which are still chugging along on 33 or 46 MHz in some places). Low band will still be around with the cockroaches and Twinkies long after broadband rolls over and goes Tango Uniform.

 

[nd5y]

Here is one in Texas with digital emissions on low band
WQBX917 (ANDERSON, COUNTY OF) FCC Callsign Details

 

[902]

Here is one in Texas with digital emissions on low band
WQBX917 (ANDERSON, COUNTY OF) FCC Callsign Details

Sure, but are they really digital? They're also running 11K2 on there, which seems like someone just put every emission on every frequency. Nobody makes P25 mobiles on low band, although a base-to-multiple base application would be really neat. That's what I thought this was when I first saw it, but the more I learn about the system, the less it seems like that's what they really are doing. I sent a message back asking my source to check with the licensee to see if they really want that. We'll see.

If I were a man of independent means, I'd love to buy a couple of those digital stations and set them up on 6 meters to see how they'd work. The only other time I saw digital on low band was with a police department in less-populated northern NJ town near the NYS border - they had Mitrek consolettes for their base stations, but used Syntor-X mobiles for their cars. I had come to find out that the salesman sold them Syntor-X radios with DVP control heads (!) AND a keyloader (!!!). Someone was meeting his margin. Long story short, they did use crypto for talking around town to get ahead of various keggers that were usually scanner-equipped. However, the same salesman sold them PacRT setups with high band HTs that were wired into the mobiles. Even though the base couldn't hear them, the scanner people could, because they learned to listen to the PacRT frequency, which was transmitting in the clear. Oops!

 

[k2hz]

Doubtful that it's the same control thing. Al Skinner was Sheriff in the 1950's and 1960's and the climate has totally changed there since that time.

Is it always Monroe County, NY on those licenses? There are other Monroe Counties around the country.

I also am not aware of any nationwide licenses for Monroe County, NY.

As Steve said, most of the political nonsense with law enforcement dispatching in Monroe County came to an end in the 1970s with the implementation of the UHF MRD system and the Monroe County OEC 911 PSAP.

While the City of Rochester and Monroe County politicians still butt heads over almost everything else, there is a fine integrated Police, Fire and EMS dispatch system in place. All City, Town, Village, Sheriff's and State law enforcement units are dispatched on a UHF P25 conventional system. City and County Fire and EMS are on VHF narrow band conventional all dispatched by OEC.

I think that guys like Steve and Dave that were at Monroe OEC can be proud of their organization's accomplishments.

The civilians at Radio Center in the days before OEC did they best they could in coping with a political system that required they take calls from multiple agencies over Point to Point and dispatch them over 159.210 while also monitoring and coordinating with adjacent counties on 39.46 plus Rochester PD, Rochester/Monroe County Fire and EMS and other Public Safety agencies.

To make things worse the 159.210/156.150 repeater had to be left disabled except in extreme emergencies so the dispatcher had to verbally relay all car to car messages. This dispatchers ran the risk of being yelled at by the Sheriff himself if they dared to activate the repeater for something that was not considered a dire enough situation.

AFAIK 39.46 is virtually dead in this area now since all the Sheriff's Departments have migrated off of low band. I remember when 39.46 was an innovation for interoperability when Sheriff's departments started migrating off of the shared 39 MHz channels used by most counties in the area.

Back to the original topic, I have seen many of these stupid applications to narrow band Low Band systems or add digital emissions. I think all 902's comments are right on and I share his frustration at all this nonsense. I have engaged in many rants about all of the same issues but it just gets worse with lawyers, politicians and sales people that think they can magically create more spectrum by attempting to fit 12 kHz wide signals into 7.5 kHz channels - the proverbial 10 pounds of "stuff" in a 2 pound bag.