450-470mhz Yagi Antenna...Is this what I need?

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5Rya

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I am trying to increase the signal of some frequencies in my area. In case this helps I live in Amherst, NY and am trying to improve reception of Twin City Ambulance, Mercy Flight and the MERS frequencies all of which are located west of my location. I will also be mounting this in the same room very close to the scanner. Currently on my outdoor antenna mounted 30 feet in the air, Twin City Ambulance comes in okay but Mercy Flight and the MERS frequencies barely come in at all. I also plan on flipping the Yagi antenna around sometimes so that I can get the sheriff which is located east of my location which operate on a 460 freq. The problem I have is that Mercy Flight and MERS frequencies operate on a 425mhz freq which is outside of the 450-470 range so with all that being said I have the following questions

1. Would a Yagi antenna even work good if mounted on the ground floor of a home on the wall?

2. If I were to get a 450-470 Yagi antenna with say 10.2db gain, how much if any gain would I expect to receive from a 425mhz freq?

3. What does "Vert. Beamwidth" mean as seen here http://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/pctel-mya45012-4258.html?

4. There is another option for a 12.25db gain, how much of a difference would it be from 12.25db to 10.2db?

Thanks - Ryan
 

br0adband

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While I'm certainly not an expert on antenna design and related fields, let's see if I can answer those with a laymen's background of using antennas of all kinds for a few decades. ;)

1) Sure, because radio waves do tend to penetrate structures to varying degrees. The 450-470 MHz range should offer excellent penetration as long as you're not buried a few hundred feet inside the Pentagon or something and I doubt that's the case here. Placing it a near an unobstructed window facing the direction you want to pull in signals from would be the best for an inside situation; obviously outside facing such a direction totally unobstructed is the overall best but it should work just fine from an inside setup.

2) Roughly the same given the proximity to the actual design of the Yagi, give or take a decibel or two. I would guess (again, not an expert here) that something within 50 MHz on either side (so down to 400 MHz and potentially up to the 512 MHz range limit here in the US for UHF-Lo) would be picked up with that antenna without any major issues and a decibel or two at most.

3) In this example the vertical beam-width is like a "cone" you could create by drawing a 34 degree angle (so 17 degrees off the center axis of the beam itself on the positive and negative sides) in the direction the Yagi is facing and taking into consideration that the Yagi is a polarized antenna meaning you mount it to match the polarization of the antenna producing the signals you want to receive. Since it's a safe bet the transmitter sites for the signals you want will use vertical polarization (meaning the antenna is straight up/down and not laid flat on the horizontal) then the Yagi would also work best with the same up/down (the elements themselves) mounting position. Signals outside of that "cone" will tend to get less sensitivity and be weaker than anything that falls inside that cone which is where the directionality of a Yagi comes into play: it focuses things instead of just pulling signals in an omnidirectional sense (which is actually does but with far less sensitivity for anything "off beam" you could say.

4) There more than likely in most situations won't be any noticeable difference between 10.2 dB and 12.25 dB overall - obviously from a purely technical standpoint there is a ~2 dB difference, and since a difference of 3 dB equals a 2x (doubling) increase in signal levels/power then in some rare instances it could actually prove helpful but, for the most part that kind of setup won't do all that much in terms of really making a signal come in booming (with a 12.25 dB gain) vs a much different lower quality signal (with a 10.2 dB gain). Basically they're so close to each other at that level of gain any appreciable or noticeable difference won't exist. Now, a 2 dB gain vs a 10.2 or 12.25 dB gain would absolutely be noticeable, absolutely, but since they're already quite high gain levels it's almost a diminishing returns kind of situation.

So, if you can get the 10.2 dB variant of the antenna and save a few bucks, that would be my advice, it could be something as simple as having one less element (the number of elements on a Yagi is what affects the gain, more elements = more gain as the theory goes) but again, there's a point of diminishing returns and also a higher cost for that higher gain that might not - in real world usage - actually provide a significant or cost-effective improvement in the reception quality.

Hope this helps, and I'm sure if a much more experienced person comes along and feels I haven't been thorough enough or just flat out wrong in some respects we'll find out soon enough. ;)
 

5Rya

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Thanks for taking the time to write all that information out. Do you know what "Bandwidth >1.5 VSWR" means in the description? I googled it and it sounds like it has something to do with frequencies outside the range but I barely understand what they are talking about. I think I have it narrowed down to either PCTEL MYA4506, Tram/Browning BR-6356 or Laird Technologies Y4506.
 

popnokick

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Need a little more context on that apparently partial spec. It could mean that an SWR of 1.5 wiil be maintained over the tuned freq range of the antenna. But the tuned freq bandwidth is not specified. OR it could mean the usable bandwidth is 1.5 MHz when tuned for lowest SWR. Need more context.
 

5Rya

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WA0CBW

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It means the VSWR is 1.5 to 1 over a 20 Mhz bandwidth. The VSWR indicates the match between the impedance of the antenna and the impedance of the feedline (at 50 ohms). This is usually more important for transmitting purposes than receiving.
BB
 

5Rya

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So it does not have anything to do with the gain in receiving frequencies outside of 450-470? I am trying to figure out how much gain I would get for a freq in the 425mhz using a 450-470 antenna. I will not be doing any transmitting, just receiving. Thanks
 

jwt873

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Last spring I picked up a 13.2 dB 11 Element 440 Mhz ham radio Yagi. (It eventually was mounted on a 30 foot tower with a rotor).

Just to see how it would work, I fastened it to a camera tripod and pointed it out the window of my laundry room (which is at ground level). I aimed it at a UHF repeater that is 30 miles away. Even going through some nearby bush, I managed to trip the repeater and get into it solidly with a 5 Watt handheld. I can't hit the repeater at all using the handheld alone with its 'rubber duck' antenna.

So, a ground floor Yagi will work. But it's hard to say for sure if it will provide better results than your current outdoor antenna at 30 feet. I have a dual band VHF/UHF vertical on top of a 40 foot tower and it also lets me access the same repeater solidly with 5 Watts. It also provides a similar receive signal strength. Height plays a big role in UHF propagation.

I don't know why, but I took a picture of the setup :)
 

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5Rya

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I think I might give it a try as I have had some problems with my outside antenna in the past as it just doesn't seem to be performing as well as it should. Considering one of the towers I am trying to reach is only 7 miles away and my outside antenna doesn't pick it up. I have no clue if this would work but I was going to try to mount the antenna on the wall almost like a picture frame using something like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000M3V8XI/ since my wall is in the direction of where I want it to go. Also I had to run 100ft of coax from the outside antenna to the scanner which might be affecting the signal although probably not as it is LMR400 cable. Does this antenna look any good http://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/laird-technologies-y4506-4245.html? Although more expensive the main reason why I think it would be a good choice is because it has a larger beamwidth compared to other antennas.
 
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jwt873

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I was going to try to mount the antenna on the wall almost like a picture frame using something like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000M3V8XI/ since my wall is in the direction of where I want it to go.

Note that Yagi antennas can be pretty tight... When I was aiming my Yagi out the window, I had to move it right and left a few inches in order to get the best signal. The wall you mount the antenna on will have to be pointing directly at the signal source you want to hear for it to work properly.

Also.. It should go out a window. A wall will reduce the signal somewhat... Especially if there is any metal involved in the outside sheathing.

For a Yagi, you want the highest gain. A Yagi obtains its gain by focusing the signal into a small area. (That's the beamwidth). The smaller the area you concentrate the signal, the stronger it gets. (Picture burning things by focusing the sun to a small dot with a magnifying glass).. So, as the beamwidth goes down, the gain goes up.

Your first choice provided 12.25 dB and the second is 10.2 dB. The extra 2 dB will provide a stronger signal. It will be almost one theoretical S unit more. It's not a lot, but depending on your conditions, it might make a difference.
 
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