800Mhz a good choice for PA?

[ocguard]

Is 800mHz really the solution for a diverse state such as PA. I'm happy to see that (maybe) York County saw it wasn't the answer for them (or perhaps they justcouldn't get the frequency assignments), but regardless, a county with primarly rolling hills and valleys, I can't imagine how many sites would be required to sustain coverage on the 800mHz spectrum. Save those (sparcly remaining) 800Mhz frequencies for the big cities that truely need them. And does a state like PA really need a statewide radio network like proposed? Does someone in Erie need to be able to talk to someone in Philly? Or send them a wireless message? Is the real answer maybe to improve the existing system. Isn't the VHF highband really the optimal choice for a state such as PA? I think about Harford County, MD, which has similar topography as York County. They recently upgraded from a seven-channel UHF repeater network to an 10-channel 800mHz network. Often talked about is the lack of existing replacment parts for their current UHF infrastructure. Please! Maybe the more appropriate choice would have been to upgrade their existing system. MDC1200 features such as PTT-ID and emergency alarm allow a truely functional public safety radio system without the costs os 800mHz. And patches can often be the solution for interoperatability with surrounding municipalities, regardless of their system type. Perhaps governments should consider more carefully before jumping on the 800mHz bandwagon just because it's "what the other guy's doing." The solution may be something more simple. And much more cost-effective!

 

[Dispatcher308]

Ocguard,

I think Lancaster County is up to 12 towers for coverage and it still isn't enough that's why they haven't gone to it yet. I can't imagine how this Open Sky Junk is gonna make anything better. PA should have just enhanced there VHF Highband like you said and gone with it. And they wouldnt be constantly sinking money into an 800mhz system that is never gonna be right.

 

[jks19714]

We are STILL spending money on Delaware's 800 MHz APCO25 system, and our state is almost flat (except around the PA border)!

Your cops should attend those planning meetings, Tazers in hand. Everytime some greedy salescritter says "800 Mhz", give him 5 seconds of Ole Sparky. You may need two or three sets of batteries, but that is what you need to do... :mrgreen:

Biggest ripoff going...

 

[brey1234]

I run an e mail reflector concerning Pa's effort to deploy such a system: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PA-800MHZ/

A new system like they're talking about is NOT always the way to go. You can start by contacting the Williamsport and Berwick Pa police departments and ask them WHY they dumped 800 mhz for the "old style" VHF system.

The original cost for the Pa system 179 million. Todays cost with overruns: 270 million dollars. That DOES NOT include the cost of the radios with an average cost of $3,000 {three thousand dollars} EACH! There are now questions being raised by the Pa Legislature about our system which is 4 years behind schudule!
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/9321879.htm?1c


I agree there are problems with the Public Safety VHF spectrum--however it seems that radio salesmen are out promoting 800 Mhz as a cure all. An agency buys into that and later finds out that the costs are a lot more and there are problems with coverage and interference [Nextel and others].
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1-5radiojul04,0,70087.story?coll=all-newslocal-hed



One of the main concerns all radio users and those footing the bills should be alarmed at is Pa's system. Yes--don't get me wrong, it has a lot of bells and whistles--however Ma/Com has it's own system of "modulation". It's called Open Sky. When it comes time to replace worn equipment---guess what? The state will not be able to get the best bang for it's buck by letting out bids. The state will be forced to buy from Ma/Com because of the nature of it's design which is proprietary. It's form of modulation is not the national standard, project 25.
That would like a TV/radio station saying: We don't want to use the national standard for our transmissions. If you want to listen/see us you'll have to buy a special TV/radio from us!

Again--everyone os for good comms between police/fire and other emergency services---but the state KNOWS it has problems making 800 MHz play--it can't stop because of all the money poured into the system--not to mention the major "egg on someone's face" if someone is hurt/killed because of the inability to get help.
A good example of that possibility is the "cell" sites being set up to cover the dead areas between the tower sites--Most of the "cells" are tied into the main system with phone lines.. To make a "connection" to the main system will take 15 seconds, according to MA/COM documents. Pa with it's mountianous terrain is known to have it's share of bad weather. Damaged/downed phone lines because of bad wx means NO communications!

Also police departments are being told "they don't make the parts" for the older systems. That's only partially true. If you had a 20 year old TV they wouldn't make parts for it either. The department could upgrade their current VHF system using modern VHF radios. They are sold by Motorola,Midland, Relm and a host of other manufacturers. There are also systems made that would allow the VHF system to be instantly "patched" into 800 MHz.

 

[ECHO3]

As a retired Commonwealth employee, I argued against this system until I was "blue in the face". You are all correct with your observations and comments. Politics is politics, however. I believe that the Commonwealth has reached that point where it cannot turn back or explore alternatives. Unless they implement the system and receive numerous complaints or a tragic scenario results, I agree with Dispatcher308 that they have no alternative but to “stay the course.” Since I can only speak for myself, I am appalled by the over costs. You will never get an accurate figure on costs because items (radios, dispatch centers, etc.) included in the original budget have been conveniently moved to other cost pools.

 

[doctordave]

Bob,

Your piece is well stated and very on-target. The project is a true disaster. Even the concept of huge dispatch centers, covering tremendous geographic areas, seems to be quite a stretch. Sad to think that PSP and other agencies could have already been enjoying upgraded service w/ new VHF-Hi radios and expanded tower service for a mere fraction of the cost.

Once in a while, a govt entity gets it right. Kent Co, MD was considering a move toward 800....but after consulting w/ a number of truly informed folks, including a veteran amateur radio operator, they instead built a VHF-Hi narrow band repeater system and have had wonderful results. Unfortunate that this sort of focused and FREE consultation does not occur more often....but such is the nature of government in many cases.

Thanks for continuing to keep this issue on the forefront. I was previously based in York and recall the area troopers groaning over the realisticially low expectations for the proposed 800 system.

Dave

 

[N_Jay]

. . . . . but after consulting w/ a number of truly informed folks, including a veteran amateur radio operator, they instead built a VHF-Hi narrow band repeater system and have had wonderful results. Unfortunate that this sort of focused and FREE consultation does not occur more often....but such is the nature of government in many cases.

. . . . .

Ther are also MANY systems where the professional consultants have recommended VHF or UHF solutions.

Then, I have also seen many systems where the local "vetern radio guy" (or know-it-all) has put together a system that was a complete waste of money. (Seems you can find good and bad examples on both sides)

 

[ocguard]

Here's what it boils down to, folks. I used to be in the fields of radio communications, and still have a devotion to keeping up with it, so I know what I'm talking about when I say...

If you're buying a set of turnout gear from a fire equipment vendor, and you're a member at the local volunteer house, the salesman is NOT going to try and sell you aviation proximity firefighting gear. Why? Because, chances are about 95% that your salesman is a whacker himself. He knows what he's talking about, and brothers don't (usually) screw brothers.

If you're a regional cop, and you go into the local law enforcment supply depot looking to by a persoanl back-up firearm, the salesman is NOT going to try and sell you an anti-tank battery. Why? Because he know's you'll shoot him with it.

BUT, most of these 6-figure Motorola consultants DON'T volunteer as firefighters and EMTs and DON'T have a law enforcment background. When they're standing inside of a building holding a portable radio, they've NEVER said "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" or "have the other units pick it up, one at gunpoint". They say "can you hear me now?" He WILL try and sell you the most expensive portable. It's probably NOT the best choice.

So educate yourself before you make these potentially life-or-death purchases. DON'T let your councilmen or county comissioners make the call for you. LEARN what you need. Get a hold of some demos. Play with them until the batteries die. Take them to the basement and see if they work. If the tallest building in your county is a grain silo, you DON'T need 800Mhz.

 

[dcfdjim]

While all of the posts on this thread are well written and convey a sense of frustration regarding the PA OpenSky system (as well as all 800 MHz systems, in general), the one major issue that needs to be addressed, no matter what system a jurisdiction switches to, is regional interoperability.

Currently, Philadelphia is using a Motorola APCO-25 800 MHz trunked system for public safety, Delaware County, PA is using a non-trunked 500 MHz system, Bucks County is using an APCO-25 trunked 500 MHz system, Chester County is using a multinet 800 MHz LTR trunked system, Montgomery County an 800 MHz Motorola P-25 system, and Camden County, NJ a 150 MHz non-trunked fire system and 500 Mhz non-trunked police system. What happens if one of these municipalities requires a multijurisdictional fire/EMS/law enforcement response to a natural or manmade (terrorism) disaster? How will an incident commander effectively coordinate responding resources from multiple neighboring jurisdictions representing potentially multiple disciplines?

The following information is an excerpt explaining a Homeland Security Presidential Directive mandating the use of a National Incident Management System. Pay particular attention to the last bulleted paragraph.

Department of Homeland Security
NIMS Fact Sheet
Fact Sheet: National Incident Management System (NIMS)
U. S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge today announced approval of the National Incident Management System (NIMS), (PDF, 152 pages - 7.6MB) the Nation's first standardized management approach that unifies Federal, state, and local lines of government for incident response.

NIMS makes America safer, from our Nation to our neighborhoods:

NIMS establishes standardized incident management processes, protocols, and procedures that all responders -- Federal, state, tribal, and local -- will use to coordinate and conduct response actions. With responders using the same standardized procedures, they will all share a common focus, and will be able to place full emphasis on incident management when a homeland security incident occurs -- whether terrorism or natural disaster. In addition, national preparedness and readiness in responding to and recovering from an incident is enhanced since all of the Nation's emergency teams and authorities are using a common language and set of procedures.

Advantages of NIMS:

NIMS incorporates incident management best practices developed and proven by thousands of responders and authorities across America. These practices, coupled with consistency and national standardization, will now be carried forward throughout all incident management processes: exercises, qualification and certification, communications interoperability, ...

Key features of NIMS:

• Incident Command System (ICS). NIMS establishes ICS as a standard incident management organization with five functional areas -- command, operations, planning, logistics, and finance/administration -- for management of all major incidents. To ensure further coordination, and during incidents involving multiple jurisdictions or agencies, the principle of unified command has been universally incorporated into NIMS. This unified command not only coordinates the efforts of many jurisdictions, but provides for and assures joint decisions on objectives, strategies, plans, priorities, and public communications.


• Communications and Information Management. Standardized communications during an incident are essential and NIMS prescribes interoperable communications systems for both incident and information management. Responders and managers across all agencies and jurisdictions must have a common operating picture for a more efficient and effective incident response.

As you can see, the challenge for local municipalities should not only be to figure out the best way to upgrade existing public safety radio systems, but to also find ways to incorporate technologies to allow for seamless regional radio interoperability.

 

[ka3jjz]

While the keyword 'interoperability' is a great concept, it falls short if the policies on how to use such a system are not in place and distributed (and taught) to all concerned.

Case in point; here in the Baltimore area, there was a major drug bust where MSP, DEA and Baltimore city were all *supposed* to be working together. There was even an air unit assisting ground units. To make a long story short, the helo had a totally outdated set of frequencies, and there was evidently no way to tie the city trunk, DEA and MSP units together. The bust went dead.

Yet, several months ago, repeaters were being built and tested for all the ICall and ITac channels. The tests were widely reported in the RR Maryland and Scan DC forums. It turns out that the helo might have been using a radio that had inadequate shielding to work at 800, and both DEA and MSP had no 800 radios, so they couldn't work there either.

Interoperability, huh? A sad joke. Wait until someone dies or is critically injured (and that happened here just last year - a major chemical spill on a main artery and the Water Taxi incident). The folks upstairs just don't get it.

Very sad - and a potentailly deadly ignorance. 73s Mike

 

[Starion1]

While the keyword 'interoperability' is a great concept, it falls short if the policies on how to use such a system are not in place and distributed (and taught) to all concerned.

Mike is right on the money regarding the buzzword that is being thrown around with today's new radio systems. The culture needs to be changed by all users and those public safety personnel need to be aware that valuable time can be saved if such communication (between various agencies) be implemented.

Late last evening I monitored an event that started with a major MVA that caused a utility pole to come down and trigger a very large tree to fall and knock out utility lines (electric, telephone, cable, etc.) along a major artery.

Police were first to arrive on the scene to report power lines down and ordered a priority response by the electric company to be dispatched to the scene. EMS units arrived to provide extrication services and transport to hospitals and there was a delay in EMS units to the scene. Police repeatered requested additional units by way of their police dispatcher. The PD unit had the opportunity to jump onto the EMS talkgroups to request additional units directly, but did not.

The incident caused a major power outage in the area and consequently they needed assistance from the fire-police units (traffic control via FD) to shut down various roadways because they needed to secure the scene. Police and Fire/EMS units had the capability to directly communicate with the fire-police officers, but did not.

Fire-police traffic detail was carried out on a secondary frequency completely separate from the county radio system. This cause major delays in deployment of traffic control personnel.

A fairly large nursing facility loss electrical power due to the incident and police needed to have the ultility company (PECO Energy) respond ASAP because some patients were oxygen dependent (oxygen concentrator) and some residents were ventilator dependent. Police were trying to acertain the ETA of the utility company because this had the potential to affect hundreds of folks in the nursing facility. The police dispatcher called via telephone to obtain ETA of power crews.

FD and EMS needed to find out the ETA of the utility company because they were in the process to deliver oxygen tanks to the nursing facility if needed. The fire dispatcher called via telephone to obtain ETA of power crews.

This story goes on and on and on.....duh!

As a scanner monitor I found it quite amusing that I copied multiply requests for THE SAME INFORMATION. It appears that each agency is a specialty, and it's easier for the dispatcher to be the go-between to obtain and relay common information that's vital to all the services involved. Too much yapping trying to get the basic information. It's obvious that they need to work together.

It's not just the FIRE service, nor the POLICE service, nor the EMS service........ it's the PUBLIC SAFETY SERVICE!!!