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911 Dispatch Console Problems

mmckenna

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He blames the weather, led lights, all kinds of things. i have never once seen any kind of rf test equipment or service monitor checking things. Very poorly installed system. Over 50 feet of rg58 ran to lmr 400 on our tower which is another issue in itself. No grounding from what i can tell. Radios are velcroed onto the tone remote adapters.

I've discovered over the years that anyone can claim to be a radio guy. They don't need to know what they are really doing, just watch some YouTube videos, maybe search the internet, that's about it. I've seen some really crappy installs in my day. From what you are describing, that seems to describe this shop. 50 feet of RG-58 on a NX-5900 is a major red flag. Lack of grounding would be a code violation.

A lot of PSAP's are struggling, and they have to trust the guy they call. It's unfortunate that said shop isn't acting responsibly, and that the PSAP hasn't put their foot down sooner.

Yeah, running a PSAP is expensive, and not all local governments fund them properly, there should be minimum standards that are met. Without those standards documented, a shop can walk in and do whatever they want. And then they send a bill and someone pays it.

The fact that they ignore you when you call is another red flag. I'm on call 24x7 for our PSAP, and I have a company that I can call in if I'm out of town or need assistance. I don't get to blow them off if I don't feel like coming in. I'm usually on site in less than an hour.

The company I use for backup has a very clearly defined set of deliverables, response times, and clear documentation of what they will and will not cover.

If anyone at your agency is part of APCO, they should get on one of the discussion boards there and ask for copies of similar documents from other agencies. If no one is a member of APCO, they should be.
They may also want to talk to the state and whoever manages 911 for the state. If any of this equipment is also used for 911 phone calls, the state may have performance requirements. If it's just radio, then it's sort of on you guys.

Either way, there's a serious problem here that is putting lives at stake. To document this problem with the vendor, and not do something to address it is dangerous. If someone dies or property is lost because the radio console is not working, then it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Not sure what kind of agency you are, but if there is a city manager/attorney, I'd talk to them.
If the center does not have proper funding to hire competent techs, then there's another major issue that needs to be addressed.

Trying to solve this on a hobby website isn't a good plan. You guys need help and you need it badly.
 

kb4mdz

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I've discovered over the years that anyone can claim to be a radio guy. They don't need to know what they are really doing, just watch some YouTube videos, maybe search the internet, that's about it. I've seen some really crappy installs in my day. From what you are describing, that seems to describe this shop. 50 feet of RG-58 on a NX-5900 is a major red flag. Lack of grounding would be a code violation.
.................................................

Trying to solve this on a hobby website isn't a good plan. You guys need help and you need it badly.
All of this. And probably a box of donuts for the lawyer's office

Yes, the fact that you've never seen a piece of RF test equipment in the tech's hands is strike 1, this particular installation is strike 2, and their slow response strike 3.

The interesting and truly shocking situations I've seen have been amazing. One county PSAP used a radio shop whose principal was related to one of the dispatchers. CPI TRA's without a case, just sitting on top of the radio. Another place put in an license-free microwave system which experienced severe fades and dropouts, which caused the JPS voters to lose voting status tone, therefore keying up the whole channel with dead air. That shop blamed it on airplanes flying thru the mwave path, and other equally improbable things. (PS that shop is no longer in business. There IS karma, it just sometimes takes a while).

Good luck, you're gonna need it, but please keep us posted.
 

AM909

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This is a simplex system (i.e. no repeater)? How/where are the antennas in relation to the base radios and how are they connected? Got a pinout for the term panel connections to the radios? What do those connections look like? Do all three radios exhibit the same problem?

Like the others, I hear "hammering" and it being worse on DMR and I think RF getting into audio, maybe ground loop from incorrect balanced/unbalanced audio wiring, etc.
 

MUTNAV

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Please post how and when this is resolved, keep us up to date as you are able, it's easy to forget us when the problem is resolved, but it helps everyone when we can close a situation in our minds (and thread).

Thanks
Joel
 

pepper33

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Tech came today, said basically it could be a number of things. Ruled out the power supply. Basically he left and said it doesnt sound as bad as it used too remark.
 

AM909

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This is a simplex system (i.e. no repeater)? How/where are the antennas in relation to the base radios and how are they connected? Got a pinout for the term panel connections to the radios? What do those connections look like? Do all three radios exhibit the same problem?

Like the others, I hear "hammering" and it being worse on DMR and I think RF getting into audio, maybe ground loop from incorrect balanced/unbalanced audio wiring, etc.
In addition, can you describe the environment of the radios? With what are they powered?
 

MUTNAV

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Tech came today, said basically it could be a number of things. Ruled out the power supply. Basically he left and said it doesnt sound as bad as it used too remark.
Did he actually look at the power supply? like with a multi-meter or preferably an oscilloscope and a load bank?

I'm assuming you're waiting while the bosses get a new service company. This is just in the meantime.

And in the meantime, (the recording was nice), is it always at the same interval, or when transmitting does the interval shorten?

Thanks
Joel
 

pepper33

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Did he actually look at the power supply? like with a multi-meter or preferably an oscilloscope and a load bank?

I'm assuming you're waiting while the bosses get a new service company. This is just in the meantime.

And in the meantime, (the recording was nice), is it always at the same interval, or when transmitting does the interval shorten?

Thanks
Joel
as long as the radio is keyed you hear the noise
 

mmckenna

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I've used some Duracomm stuff and it's been OK. If the power supply checks out with proper testing, then it's probably not your issue.
I still think it's RF getting into the audio, but that still a guess. Your description of lack of grounding and poor install makes me think that it's not going to be something this shop will fix, since they are the ones that likely caused it.

Talk to another PSAP, find out who they use and if they have had a good experience. Bring that shop in to look at your system. They'll probably give you a laundry list of everything that is wrong, as well as a cost to fix it. It'll probably be a good path forward. The current shop is obviously not capable of handling this kind of work. Calling them in over and over and expecting them to fix the mess they made isn't going to work.
 

MUTNAV

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I've used some Duracomm stuff and it's been OK. If the power supply checks out with proper testing, then it's probably not your issue.
I still think it's RF getting into the audio, but that still a guess. Your description of lack of grounding and poor install makes me think that it's not going to be something this shop will fix, since they are the ones that likely caused it.

Talk to another PSAP, find out who they use and if they have had a good experience. Bring that shop in to look at your system. They'll probably give you a laundry list of everything that is wrong, as well as a cost to fix it. It'll probably be a good path forward. The current shop is obviously not capable of handling this kind of work. Calling them in over and over and expecting them to fix the mess they made isn't going to work.
Even skilled people need a different set of eyes on the subject sometimes.

For example, One place I was at, a navigation aid was mostly destroyed after a lightning hit, I was able to convince leadership to get a dedicated professional to look at EVERYTHING, regarding lightning, for an airfield. He found a lot that we could have figured out on our own, but were nose blind to

(ie, before I had arrived, a tower had been moved a hundred feet away from a building, removing the building from its cone of protection, no additional protection was provided for the building and it eventually resulted in the lightning strike).

Thanks
Joel
 

WB5UOM

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Ok I will jump in here -I do not think I have seen a suggestion (maybe Im old and blind and missed it) BUT
How about taking a correct mobile mic and plugging it into the control radio and talk on it and see if the problem is still there, if not
then Id say console (which is my primary thought from the start) OR cabling between that has been mentioned.

my .02cents worth adjusted for current inflation now $4.75
 

MUTNAV

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Ok I will jump in here -I do not think I have seen a suggestion (maybe Im old and blind and missed it) BUT
How about taking a correct mobile mic and plugging it into the control radio and talk on it and see if the problem is still there, if not
then Id say console (which is my primary thought from the start) OR cabling between that has been mentioned.

my .02cents worth adjusted for current inflation now $4.75
I was thinking more about dummy loading the transmitters and seeing if the problem still exists, but I don't know enough about the comm systems to begin with, just on simpler and smaller things, that's what we would have done...

Of course this is still an active emergency response system, I'd hate to take it down for anything that wont permanently fix the problem.

Thanks
Joel
 

KevinC

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Ok I will jump in here -I do not think I have seen a suggestion (maybe Im old and blind and missed it) BUT
How about taking a correct mobile mic and plugging it into the control radio and talk on it and see if the problem is still there, if not
then Id say console (which is my primary thought from the start) OR cabling between that has been mentioned.

my .02cents worth adjusted for current inflation now $4.75
Very good suggestion.
 

mmckenna

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Ok I will jump in here -I do not think I have seen a suggestion (maybe Im old and blind and missed it) BUT
How about taking a correct mobile mic and plugging it into the control radio and talk on it and see if the problem is still there, if not
then Id say console (which is my primary thought from the start) OR cabling between that has been mentioned.

my .02cents worth adjusted for current inflation now $4.75

Good suggestion, and I keep mobile a mic hanging next to our link radios specifically for this.

I'd include disconnecting the DB-25 cable from the back of the radio before doing this. Isolate the radio so it's just the hand mic, power supply and antenna and see how it goes.
Then reconnect the DB-25 and see if that's the cause.
 

WB5UOM

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mmckenna added what I forgot to say but YES YES disconnect the DB-25 from the radio when testing the local mic.
 
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