Advice On Getting A Set Of Radios

[DanRollman]

See if you can get a pair of Motorola DTR type freq. hopping 900MHz radios and try those before jumping into a costlier solutions like adding a repeater or leaky coax install and getting licensed, etc. The DTR's seem to work very well onboard cruise ships based on reports I have read and are license free.

This.

The DTR/DLR radios are as good as it gets on a metal ship. License free.

I bought a set of DLR1020's specifically for use on a cruise, and it was one of the best radio investments I've made and they have become our primary radios around the neighborhood too. If you're measuring range as true line of sight, perhaps 1 watt FHSS at 900 MHz isn't your best solution. But if by "range" you mean how many building floors it can penetrate, or whether it can get out of the third sub basement, then two buildings over, then back into a sub basement in the neighboring building, 1 watt of FHSS at 900 MHz will blow any 4+ watt 150 MHz/450 MHz analog or DMR radio out of the water.

So put another way, on the cruise ship the "range" of my DLR1020 1 watt FHSS 900 MHz radio was "16 decks" while the "range" of my 4 watt and 5 watt VHF and UHF analog and DMR radios was just a few decks. So "range" totally depends on your application, and is not always best measured in miles anyway.

We've since upgraded to DTR700 radios for mom and dad, and the kids use DLR1020s. Now mom and dad can easily call specific radios, see on the screen whose calling, transmit to all radios regardless of what channel they are on, and other "trunked system like" features. All on FHSS simplex.

 

[mmckenna]

Passageways make awesome waveguides at 900MHz.

 

[EastCoastSunrise]

@RFI-EMI-GUY @MUTNAV @DanRollman

I’ll address the knowing who’s on the boat thing first. It’s something we are well aware of, it’s never really been a huge problem, given the low numbers of people on board. Which is often groups of volunteers, at least two in a group, who are doing work. There’s also a tour route which spans a few decks, which has a fire alarm system. Either way it’s an issue that is being addressed. There is a plan to create an accountability board for volunteers, and the “guard shack” which is the ticketing office I belive keeps track of who’s aboard in the visitor side. It’s not a good system but progress is being made to improve it. As for the use of the system, it’s a ease of use thing for tour guides and work parties. Like I said the only way to get a hold of someone aboard is to use the 1mc. I think someone mentioned the ships telephone systems. We have sound powered phones aboard but as those who’ve used them know getting someone’s attention can be a challenge. There’s also the ship service telephone system. However it’s, how do I say this, unavailable at the moment. Due to a mix of stripping from the Navy while in the mothball fleet or during the museum era several telephones are missing or have their rotary dials (yes it’s all rotary phones) missing. Then following the well intentioned efforts of another volunteer the personal brach exchange that runs the system has I’ll just say some issues. I wound assume they would be used in the event of an evacuation but life safety related communications is not their primary responsibility. As for Wi-Fi based radios they are a no go. Yet again one of my projects is to work on a network overhaul for the ship. And given how much of the ship we can cover, which won’t really include spaces away from the tour route. They aren’t a good option. I will look in to getting my hands on a pair of DTR radios to test as they sound the the best option, both in terms of cost and performance. I noticed they also have repeaters at what I’d call decent prices. Other question, when ordering these trough a dealer are discounts below msrp common or should we expect to pay msrp?

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Assuming the service phones each have intact twisted pair back to the PBX room you can install an Avaya Partner mini PABX and utilize the wires for a POTS phone. Or you can put a blank plate where the dial was removed on the existing phones and configure for ringdown or autodialing (with a module).

If you buy the Motorola DTR's bear in mind they are proprietary and Motorola is known to drop a product technology with little notice. Be prepared to buy some spares, including more antennas and batteries.

 

[bharvey2]

900mhz DSS radios were the first thing that came to mind while reading this and that's is a good recommendation. Given that this is a museum ship, have you considered contacting another and see what they use? The USS Hornet, docked in Alameda, CA is another such ship and they have a ham club too. I've communicated with them in person and on VHF and HF ham bands. They're a fairly amicable bunch. I'd bet they'd be willing to pass on anything they've learned.

 

[MUTNAV]

900mhz DSS radios were the first thing that came to mind while reading this and that's is a good recommendation. Given that this is a museum ship, have you considered contacting another and see what they use? The USS Hornet, docked in Alameda, CA is another such ship and they have a ham club too. I've communicated with them in person and on VHF and HF ham bands. They're a fairly amicable bunch. I'd bet they'd be willing to pass on anything they've learned.

I was just thinking the same thing.... Especially with regards to safety issues (which were apparently addressed), I was thinking the Mystic Seaport isn't too far away, but most of their boats are wood, maybe the U.S.S. New Jersey, or the U.S.S. Ling (submarine). They may have more on a fully developed set of programs that you can adapt, assuming it doesn't bend a few noses to see how others operate, if nothing else, some of you might be able to get a free tour of thier ships, might be fun to compare and contrast ! !

Thanks
Joel

 

[EastCoastSunrise]

I haven't had a chance yet to reach out to the other ships. I think USS NJ is using run of the mil FRS type radios, or at least that what it looks like in the videos Ive seen. But USS NJ is in much better shape and I know for a fact there telephone system is intact. Still Ill send a few emails out to the other ships and see what I come up with. I also believe we do have a ham club, but I haven't been able to get an email to reach out with yet. Unrelated but @RFI-EMI-GUY, was hoping what you said wouldn't be the truth but alas, it does appear that way with them. So Ill make sure we budget in an extra few units in case they do drop the line.

 

[mmckenna]

I also believe we do have a ham club, but I haven't been able to get an email to reach out with yet.

Be very cautious. Ham radio and the commercial rules your operation will fall under are two different things. Hams only have to pass a 35 question multiple choice test, and that test does not cover anything to do with commercial radio systems, rules for them, or how to properly/legally set things up.
Not saying that cannot be a resource, but they are not an authority on these types of systems. I've spent the last few years fixing a radio system that one of our sites farmed out to some ham radio operators. It's taken a lot of time and money to bring them back into compliance and make it all work correctly. They might suggest some low budget solutions, but you'll pay a ton of money fixing it.

Disclaimer: I hold a few FCC licenses, ham radio is one of them.

 

[ecps92]

Experiment, only you will determine what will work best.

That said, Cruise Ships and much of the US Navy use UHF
so a FRS or GMRS radio will likely work best, even on a Cruise Ship folks use FRS with very few issues.

The other option is the FHHS spectrum that that Motorola has within their DTR / DL? line of radios
900 mhz freq hopping.

YMMV and only you will find what works best - upon experimentation

Ill open with this, my knowledge comes from scanners and poking around the forums here alongside some YouTube videos and internet articles. Anyway, I recently have been come involved with the USS Salem based out of Quincy MA. Onboard communications are poor, often no one knows who's on the ship and even if we know your on the ship we rarely know where. The only way to contact people is to text them and hope they receive it trough all the metal (unlikely) or go over the "1MC" which is a ship wide PA that is only one way. There is a ship service telephone system that does not work as the exchange that switched the system is not working right. Either way I mentioned to some other volunteers and a few people in charge that I think we should get some two way radios for shipboard communications. The place of use is well a ship, its made of steel, lots, lots of steel. So RF transmission from cell phones isnt an option. So I am looking for some advice / options for handhelds we can use onboard. I have not had a change to take my FRS radios on board to check their range but I am doubtful they will have enough power. Even if they did work they are not rugged enough nor do they have enough battery to last all day. Based on what I know, I think digital radios would be best but I will leave those suggestions up to the experts here. There is also the question of whether or not we should have a repeater? Again feedback is welcome here. Cost is a factor, but I just want to hear what people recommend so I have a rough idea and can go back and pitch it to those up the chain from me.

EastCoastSunrise

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I would reach out to the museum ship community and see what they are doing. For example, Ryan Szimanski could likely get you some info on the radio system used on New Jersey by the staff or at least get you pointed in the right direction. He can also get you connected with others in the museum ship community to see what they are doing and what they've found to work or not work.

 

[alcahuete]

That said, Cruise Ships and much of the US Navy use UHF
so a FRS or GMRS radio will likely work best, even on a Cruise Ship folks use FRS with very few issues.

They do use UHF, but they do it with multiple repeaters and leaky coax. They do not use HTs on simplex, and when they do, they don't work well. FRS, GMRS, 4 watt business, generally do not perform nearly as well as 900 MHz radios. I have done side-by-side testing on pretty much every band from CB to 900 MHz, and 900 MHz outperforms the others every single time.

 

[ecps92]

Having seen many a Cruise line Code plug, they do have and do use simplex in the UHF range

Yes multiple Repeaters, but those are dedicated to functionality.
Quick example
Repeater 1 - Security/Bridge Ops
Repeater 2 - Shore Exc / House Keeping
Repeater 3 - Engineering / Safety

They do use UHF, but they do it with multiple repeaters and leaky coax. They do not use HTs on simplex, and when they do, they don't work well. FRS, GMRS, 4 watt business, generally do not perform nearly as well as 900 MHz radios. I have done side-by-side testing on pretty much every band from CB to 900 MHz, and 900 MHz outperforms the others every single time.

 

[alcahuete]

Having seen many a Cruise line Code plug, they do have and do use simplex in the UHF range

Yes multiple Repeaters, but those are dedicated to functionality.
Quick example
Repeater 1 - Security/Bridge Ops
Repeater 2 - Shore Exc / House Keeping
Repeater 3 - Engineering / Safety

The only simplex in use is by the dinner staff, casino staff, bridge, etc., but all in a close area. There is nobody using UHF simplex ship-wide, regardless of the "many" cruise line code plugs you have seen. I have been on 50+ cruises on every size ship imaginable (and several Navy ships where I couldn't use radios, of course), and have literally tested everything from CB up to 900 MHz. The only radios that have offered full-ship coverage on any ship, has been 900 MHz...either P25, DMR, or the DTR FHSS. UHF business, FRS/GMRS have NEVER given me full-ship coverage...not once.

On one specific cruise ship not too long ago (Norwegian Epic), the excursion folks in the theater (bow) were attempting to use UHF simplex to the dock. It was nothing but static 95% of the time. My DTR had no problem making it from there to several blocks into the city, crystal clear. The Cruise Director actually stopped me and asked me what kind of radios I was using.

So you can laugh all you want and look at the "many" code plugs. I have actually gone out and tested it.

 

[ecps92]

You just reminded me why you are on my IGNORE list

The only simplex in use is by the dinner staff, casino staff, bridge, etc., but all in a close area. There is nobody using UHF simplex ship-wide, regardless of the "many" cruise line code plugs you have seen. I have been on 50+ cruises on every size ship imaginable (and several Navy ships where I couldn't use radios, of course), and have literally tested everything from CB up to 900 MHz. The only radios that have offered full-ship coverage on any ship, has been 900 MHz...either P25, DMR, or the DTR FHSS. UHF business, FRS/GMRS have NEVER given me full-ship coverage...not once.

On one specific cruise ship not too long ago (Norwegian Epic), the excursion folks in the theater (bow) were attempting to use UHF simplex to the dock. It was nothing but static 95% of the time. My DTR had no problem making it from there to several blocks into the city, crystal clear. The Cruise Director actually stopped me and asked me what kind of radios I was using.

So you can laugh all you want and look at the "many" code plugs. I have actually gone out and tested it.

 

[top13]

Your best bet is to communicate with the folks at Battleship Cove or at the U.S.S. Cassin Young in Boston and see what they use for onboard comms.

 

[ecps92]

Battleship Cove is UHF

Massachusetts Recreational Facilities - Scan New England Wiki

www.snewiki.com

I've never seen anyone with radios over at the Cassin Young, outside of the National Park LE Rangers and the USS Constitution folks, all usng VHF

Your best bet is to communicate with the folks at Battleship Cove or at the U.S.S. Cassin Young in Boston and see what they use for onboard comms.

 

[alcahuete]

You just reminded me why you are on my IGNORE list

If you want to IGNORE me for calling out your misinformation, that's perfectly fine with me.

Like I said, I have actually tested the various bands aboard actual, real ships...probably 35 different ones.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I asked a radio tech who is head of security for a major cruise line to read this thread.
They use UHF DMR, older ships have leaky coax, newer ones use IP connected repeaters.
He also said 900 MHz is the best.

I think this conversation got splintered on who is using what, crew vs passenger.