AFRRCS - Alberta First Responders' Radio Communication System - INFO HERE

harryshute

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
1,876
Location
Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA
Don't dispose of that 396XT any time soon as that should do very well on the system. Jay's Uniden Home Patrol is working well on the new systems in the Calgary area.

My understanding is that GRE deleted a portion of the high 700 MHZ and low 800 MHz areas due to images and birdies. At the very least you would lose the 800 MHz Simplex channels licensed for the provincial network. I'm not sure it's something that can be fixed with a firmware update. If GRE does get a request you can be sure they will start working on the issue.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Here's a bit of a long-winded explanation, but the short answer is, unless you want to listen to the repeater inputs, you shouldn't notice any issues.

The "700 MHz band" runs from 763 MHz to 806 MHz, much like the "800 MHz band" runs from 806 MHz to 824 MHz (for inputs) and 851 MHz to 869 MHz (for outputs). Both the 700 and 800 MHz bands have standardized input offsets, as does the lower UHF portion of the RF spectrum (400 MHz - example, the input for 413.x is standardized as +5 MHz, so 418.x).

The inputs for the 800 MHz band is -45 MHz, so 851.0125's input is 806.0125. The input for the 700 MHz band is +30 MHz, so 763.00625's input would be 793.00625.

It remains to be seen if Canada is going to treat the 700 MHz band the same way the US is, but if they do (and from the licenses it looks like it is probable), frequencies from 763 to 768.99875 (and thus also 793 to 798.99875) will be used for conventional non-trunking purposes. Trunking takes place between 769 and 775.99875 (and the inputs on 799 to 805.99875).

For reasons not explained publicly, GRE scanners (and the scanners they make for Radio Shack etc, since they are just GREs with a different case) seem to have a problem between 796.x and 806 MHz in that they receive images, or unwanted duplicates of signals elsewhere in the RF spectrum. In GRE's case, the radios receive images from the 800 MHz band into the 796-806 range. It's not as simple as a straight mathematical link, i.e. 796.8125 does not equal 866.8125, but it's in that neighborhood. I have personally seen this in Lethbridge (there's a thread in this forum about it) with my PSR500 and PSR800, and others have experienced the same behavior in plenty of other places all over North America.

This is a problem in the GRE's hardware, not in the software/firmware. The solution GRE has put forth to date involves preventing you from being able to tune in to that section of the 700 MHz band. If you have a newer GRE scanner, or a GRE scanner with a recently applied firmware update, odds are you will get an "out of band" error (or it will tune to 796.0 or 806.0, depending on what end of the "blocked band" you are trying to enter) if you try to key in a frequency in this blocked portion of the band.

This problem cannot be fixed with a firmware update. The problem presumably lies in the circuitry of the receiver and would require physical changes to fix it. GRE is coming out with a PSR-900 very soon which appears to be a base/mobile version of the PSR-800, and I don't know if that portion of the band has been opened up in that radio. There is a "pre-release thread" somewhere in the GRE forum on RR that may have that answer.

The good news is unless you make a habit of listening to the input frequencies (portable/mobile radio to the trunk system tower), this shouldn't affect you. I fully expect all trunk system frequencies will fall between 769.0 MHz and 775.99875 MHz - and so far that is the case in the licenses and live sites that have been discovered.

One last comment about the PSR-800 though - for a system such as this which is still being discovered, the PSR-800 may not be the ideal radio. Its design is more centered around taking things from the RR library (filtered through GRE's servers) and loading them in to the scanner. While it is possible to create custom systems using GRE's Ez-Scan software and load it into the 800, you can not do any "on the fly" programming, i.e. if you are out and about and want to add a new trunk site, unless you brought your computer along with the software and cable, you're out of luck.

Having said that, I regularly carry around the PSR-800 along with a PSR-500, and a 396XT and have an HP1 mounted in the car. The next time I have a reliable signal for a tower site and there is some voice traffic, I will try each of them to make sure they can track the system. I know the HP1 will do just fine, so I am pretty confident any modern Uniden will work. (I also have a 996T, PSR-600, and another HP1 at home, and when the signals reach that area, I can try it on them too.) Once I confirm which scanners can and can't track the signals, that information will become part of the Wiki article.

Naturally scanners that do not do the 700 MHz band (my old 796D is one such animal) will not cut the mustard. Also, I have no confirmation of this yet, but I believe the VHF portions of the system will be "One Freq Trunk" (in Uniden's terms) systems, but we'll see.
 

mark2117

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
232
Location
Alberta
Well then worst case scenario I could still purchase a PSR-800 and play with it until the system hits my area in "2013", and if I have to I can go back to a Uniden if it impedes my ability to monitor this new system. I've just heard really good things about it and have always owned Unidens and am looking to trying something new, still love my 396XT!!
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
I did a little road trip yesterday to enjoy the weather and touched on some of the easternmost known sites. No RF emanating from: Cluny, Strathmore, Bassano, Brooks, ORH, Iddesleigh, and Duchess. So it looks like the four (well, six) we have in the DB are the only ones turned on right now. Did see some vehicles including a backhoe at Iddesleigh though.

TAFL was updated slightly yesterday, upgrading the licenses for Calgary Spy Hill and Cremona from "invoiced" to "active" (licensed). Doesn't really mean anything IMO - the frequencies were licensed with a March authorization date - difference between a 4 (invoiced) and 6 (active) is whether or not IC has the payment, far as I can tell.

I added a couple sections to the wiki. I took the "note for GRE scanner users" and changed it to "which scanners work with this system". The radios I have (and in some cases their mobile/portable counterparts) and have tested are listed. If anyone does any monitoring and wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. The other section I added is for radio and talkgroup IDs.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
The SOWs are active today up at the Calgary test site. Interestingly enough they seem to be running as one site (PRO96COM shows 8 freqs associated to 248-248 and no CC on 201-249).

A small handful of TGs and RIDs from testing have been found. PSR500 will track the system automatically. PSR800 did NOT track with default settings - band plan was set to "Standard"; switched it to "Auto-fill" and now waiting for another transmission to confirm.

BCD396XT supplies PRO96COM just as well as the PSR500 does.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Update: PSR800 does indeed track properly with the trunk site bandplans set to "Auto-Fill". Not a surprise considering the oddball band plans in use.

I need to correct something I said in the previous post too... the SOW in use has all its frequencies plus several frequencies from the Spy Hill license, and two unknown frequencies (none from the other SOW). I'm wondering if they're staging the hardware using a SOW and once it's ready to go, will deploy it in the field.

The audio I heard (TGs 11 thru 20 were in use) was very clear and readable. Granted, the radios were probably right under the tower site, and I wasn't too far away either. There were no dropouts, static, "motorboating", or any other problems you hear as complaints from elsewhere.

Also both PRO96COM and UT reported a number of "private data messages" - not unlike what was seen on PPSTN a few months ago, if I recall correctly. My logs will soon be available for all to peruse.

I'll try to update the wiki tonight and make submissions to the RRDB as well.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
That has to be the worst-written article on telecommunications I've ever seen.

Besides the above-mentioned concept of having public safety compete with other devices connecting to Youtube, there are these gems..

The secure and private wire-less network, officially called a broadband spectrum

10 of the 700 MHz will go toward emergency responders like police, firefighters and paramedics, who will be able to use the private band-width to communicate with colleagues across Canada and even U.S. counterparts along the border.

This is what happens when you let your political correspondent write a technology laced report. Or perhaps it's Toews' office's fault for not having enough backgrounder information available.

What this really is about is a continued effort by emergency responders in Canada to secure part of the 700MHz spectrum for their exclusive use. Unlike the US, Canada hasn't allocated 700 for us at this point, and doesn't even have a structured plan for the chunk of spectrum for now. I was sure I saw another thread on this somewhere else this morning, because it had a map with bandplan information on it at the same time. If I find it, I'll link it here so we can direct conversation there since it's not really AFRRCS related.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
I was sure I saw another thread on this somewhere else this morning, because it had a map with bandplan information on it at the same time. If I find it, I'll link it here so we can direct conversation there since it's not really AFRRCS related.

The other thread was on scanBC, so I won't link to it - but here's the URL from within it.

Mission Critical Broadband for Public Safety Data

The chart I was thinking of was: http://www.citig.ca/Data/Sites/1/action700/700mhzspectrumneedschart-v2.pdf
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Bunch of new sites on the licenses recently, including some interesting ones out of the normal area being populated.. Ponoka, McNeill, and Clive specifically.

The government website also appears to have been updated, but everything except the landing page appears to be broken. Sharepoint fail or Friday launch fail?
 

beeperboy

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
292
Location
Calgary
I see the Cochrane AFRRCS site will have both 700MHz and VHF. I thought they were just going to use VHF in the mountains and non AC powered sites? Hmm, it's almost like they've already admitted 700 MHz propagation defeat before they even get started. This ought to get interesting.

BB
 

VE6BRW

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
89
Location
Grande Prairie, Alta
Afrrcs

I was in Edmonton from May 29 - June 2, 2012. put in all of the AFRRCS frequencies and monitiored both P-25 & FM.... didnt get one hit on any of the frequencies, so don't know if they are even working in Edm as of yet. (not even SOW 1&2)
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
The SOWs are seeming to live at the Calgary 120 Av NE site now - there's a fenced compound just their size.

The only sites I've seen CCs on are the original four so far - nothing active elsewhere to date.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
The 805 MHz frequencies in the northern license have been replaced with a handful of 770 MHz frequencies.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Some time between the end of May and this past week, the active sites have had a bit of reconfiguring. I have a decode log from 068-068 Wintering Hills (picked up on Stoney Trail NW, not bad FWIW) with a different band plan than before. New base is 771.11875 and step is 12.5 kHz. Along with this, the site is now broadcasting adjacent site information (neighbors) including 067-067 Rockyford, 073-073 Beiseker, and 093-093 Crossfield (the other three sites with known active CCs), and the LCNs advertised match the licensed freqs if you follow this new band plan. Don't know if this will be adjusted again (there are many sites with freqs below 771.11875) or if those other sites will just have a different base.
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Bunch of cleanup done on the wiki, making it look better, and moving the pages around. The site specific data is now included in the regular wiki page for each county - you can click on the "Wiki" button in the Calgary part of the RRDB for example, and after all the other data in the wiki article, the AFRRCS sites are listed.

Some interesting new satellite licenses showing up in TAFL this morning. In addition to a handful at previously-licensed (or applied for) 700 MHz tower sites, there are two at places we don't have 700 sites for yet, and they're way out of the usual area: Whitecourt Mountain and Two Creeks (both in roughly the same area, on the grand scale of things).

Also, for the fellow who asked several weeks ago about when the system might make its presence known in the NE corner of the province: although none of this new licensing has meant anything down here (the only sites apparently active are the first four identified a while ago), there is a site undergoing licensing in Algar, about 40km south of the 881 on 63.
 

VE6BRW

Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
89
Location
Grande Prairie, Alta
Afrrcs

Hey Jay, is there a possability that you could take some pictures of the sites, tower info etc... in piticular the antenna arrays and post them for us to see, there are a few new towers going up around here and they are quite cluttered. Im thinking that they will be heavy into heading out around the province setting up the towers and antennas/cabling then come around after and just install the site equipment. that way they'd be online much faster!
 

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
I did take a handful of pics - though none very close up - of tower sites a month or two ago. I'll see if I can figure out what I did with them.

EDIT: Found them, and uploading to my Flickr page now. Luckily they got geotagged by my phone, because I didn't identify them at all! I'll link to small versions in the next few posts, and clicking on them should take you to the high-res versions on my Flickr page. Sorry, none of them are ultra-precise because as I implied, I just took a few shots out the window of my car with my phone.

From what I've heard, they are building and staging the site hardware in Calgary in fully encapsulated modules/enclosures, and then just delivering them to the antenna/power hookups at each tower site when they're done. So yes, it's kind of how you surmised.

I also heard a rumor that my removing the Edmonton Remand freqs from the wiki might have been a premature move, so I put them back. (In other words, YEG'ers, tune in!)
 
Last edited:

Jay911

Silent Key (April 15th, 2023)
Feed Provider
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Messages
9,378
Location
Bragg Creek, Alberta
Let's see if this will work. You should have a 480x640 "thumbnail" here in the thread and be able to click through to a ~1900x2500 full size version on Flickr, if this works as I expect it to.

The two SOWs in operation behind the 120 Avenue NE (Calgary) building. Note the towers are only tilted-up, not extended - even in this configuration I was able to pick them up about 15 miles away.
(I'm a little intrigued by the single element antenna. Each of these sites were running a CC and three other frequencies for a total of 4 freqs each when this pic was taken, and one of them was reconfigured for either 8 or 12 freqs at a later date during testing. Multiplexing?)

SOWs 1 & 2 by Jay911_50, on Flickr

Outer Rainy Hill (just NW of CFB Suffield's area)

Outer Rainy Hill by Jay911_50, on Flickr

Iddesleigh (south of the town, actually in Cypress County, almost due north of ORH)

Iddesleigh by Jay911_50, on Flickr

Brooks (south of town on the range road)

Brooks by Jay911_50, on Flickr

Bassano (again, south of town on the range road)

Bassano by Jay911_50, on Flickr

Cluny (north of town, south of the TCH, on the secondary highway)

Cluny by Jay911_50, on Flickr

Apparently I don't have any pics of the known active sites, so I could very well be showing you towers with no equipment on them yet (except for the SOWs of course). When I get some time I'll try to go by one or more of the known active ones and take a peek again.
 
Last edited:
Top