Airspace surveillance/monitoring?

[KK4JW]

This may be a question more suited for an actual military forum, but I thought I'd throw it out here in hopes someone could offer some insight.

Obviously, it's a huge matter of National Security that our Air Force/military keep a close watch on the skies above America, but just exactly how do they accomplish this? I mean, there's a LOT of airspace up there and keeping tabs on it all seems like a pretty daunting chore.

Sure, I know about NORAD - but aren't they busier keeping tabs on ballistic missile threats from hostile areas of the world? Or if they do indeed keep tabs on the airspace above us, how do they accomplish this? Do they have multiple radar sites around the country linked together and providing feeds back to their command center? Or do they just have a couple more powerful radar systems that do this? Or do they rely on AWACS aircraft covertly cruising around the country to provide them their surveillance?

What about, for example, when The President hops on board AF1 and decides to take a flight somewhere? I've watched AF1 on ADS-B a time or two, and it seems there's never any type of airborne surveillance aircraft flying around keeping an eye on the airspace around AF1. Are they likely there and just hiding their position data? I understand that MilAir aircraft have many capabilities, such as spoofing their ADS-B and whatnot. Just wondering what really takes place here.

I also understand my questions are pretty specific in nature, and while some people may know, they may not be able to answer, and that's okay.

Thanks!

 

[mancow]

There are many up when POTUS moves about. There are plenty up training as well. I hear them all the time calling out targets for intercept. You just need to search for them for a while. They usually don't broadcast ADSB.

 

[drdispatch]

They rely on military and FAA ATC radars to keep track of everything. The domestic air traffic piece is (I think) left mostly to the Air Defense Sectors, while the missile tracking is done from NORAD HQ. NORAD works closely with the FAA on a daily basis. During major events like the Super Bowl, etc. or when POTUS goes somewhere, there is always Combat Air Patrol (CAP). Those will often show up on ADS-B along with the tanker(s) assigned to refuel them. They will be in radio contact with the appropriate NORAD Air Defense Sector.

 

[Mikejo]

I left the Air Force in 1987, my last job was at the pave-paws on Cape Cod tracking satellites and missiles. Before that, I had been stationed at north truro a long range radar which sent radar data down to the 21st air division and to the FAA. There are a string of radar sites up and down the East Coast anyways, and they’re all feeding radar data to the FAA and associated military locations.

Basically, it’s all passively being watched all the time by someone somewhere.

 

[dlwtrunked]

They rely on military and FAA ATC radars to keep track of everything. The domestic air traffic piece is (I think) left mostly to the Air Defense Sectors, while the missile tracking is done from NORAD HQ. NORAD works closely with the FAA on a daily basis. During major events like the Super Bowl, etc. or when POTUS goes somewhere, there is always Combat Air Patrol (CAP). Those will often show up on ADS-B along with the tanker(s) assigned to refuel them. They will be in radio contact with the appropriate NORAD Air Defense Sector.

Indeed. Airspace radar is largely done by FAA CARSR and military ARSR-4 surveillance radars. The ARSR-4 are usually near the borders (not just the coast)coast but the CARSR are scattered throughout the country. These are not the same as the ATC radars at airports and the surveillance radars are used for both defense and watching aircraft from their locations usually not at airports (but sometimes they are). Airport ATC radars operate at 2700-1300 MHz (same frequency range used by weather service NEXRAD) with 4.8 second rotation; but the surveillance radars (both CARSR and ARSR-4) operate in the L-Band (1240-1370 MHz) with 12 second rotation. (Terminal Doppler Weather Radar, TDWR, operates near larger airports at around 5600-5650 MHz. Also, some airports have ground surveillance and other radars at the airfield on higher frequencies.)

Definitely want to see

JSS System - FortWiki Historic U.S. and Canadian Forts

Historic US and Canadian fortifications

www.fortwiki.com

 

[sprman1955]

Worked on the TDWR radars! Dont hear much here in TN for Mil aircraft.Mainly refueling around here is what i hear.

 

[KK4JW]

Thanks everyone for the great information. I just picked up a BC125AT so I'm getting started in MilAir scanning. I've scanned CivAir for many, many years and this is something new to me.

 

[dlwtrunked]

Indeed. Airspace radar is largely done by FAA CARSR and military ARSR-4 surveillance radars. The ARSR-4 are usually near the borders (not just the coast)coast but the CARSR are scattered throughout the country. These are not the same as the ATC radars at airports and the surveillance radars are used for both defense and watching aircraft from their locations usually not at airports (but sometimes they are). Airport ATC ASR radars operate at 2700-3000 MHz (same frequency range used by weather service NEXRAD) with 4.8 second rotation; but the surveillance radars (both CARSR and ARSR-4) operate in the L-Band (1240-1370 MHz) with 12 second rotation. (Terminal Doppler Weather Radar, TDWR, operates near larger airports at around 5600-5650 MHz. Also, some airports have ground surveillance and other radars at the airfield on higher frequencies.)

Definitely want to see

JSS System - FortWiki Historic U.S. and Canadian Forts

Historic US and Canadian fortifications

www.fortwiki.com

And in case you wonder what they sound like (radio in usb mode and the actually signal is much larger than the audio bandwidth), see/hear attachments from my extensive collection. ... sorry, RR would not accept the attachments.

 

[dmh77yy]

DHS CBP also has both airborne and ground based sensors (especially on the southern border given the drastic increase in criminal drone activity). I assume this is fed live into MIL/FAA monitoring systems as well.

 

[hruskacha]

This may be a question more suited for an actual military forum, but I thought I'd throw it out here in hopes someone could offer some insight.

Obviously, it's a huge matter of National Security that our Air Force/military keep a close watch on the skies above America, but just exactly how do they accomplish this? I mean, there's a LOT of airspace up there and keeping tabs on it all seems like a pretty daunting chore.

Sure, I know about NORAD - but aren't they busier keeping tabs on ballistic missile threats from hostile areas of the world? Or if they do indeed keep tabs on the airspace above us, how do they accomplish this? Do they have multiple radar sites around the country linked together and providing feeds back to their command center? Or do they just have a couple more powerful radar systems that do this? Or do they rely on AWACS aircraft covertly cruising around the country to provide them their surveillance?

What about, for example, when The President hops on board AF1 and decides to take a flight somewhere? I've watched AF1 on ADS-B a time or two, and it seems there's never any type of airborne surveillance aircraft flying around keeping an eye on the airspace around AF1. Are they likely there and just hiding their position data? I understand that MilAir aircraft have many capabilities, such as spoofing their ADS-B and whatnot. Just wondering what really takes place here.

I also understand my questions are pretty specific in nature, and while some people may know, they may not be able to answer, and that's okay.

Thanks!

When POTUS came to West Michigan a few years ago, I remember State Police Helicopter doing a majority of the recon.

 

[marcotor]

When POTUS came to West Michigan a few years ago, I remember State Police Helicopter doing a majority of the recon.

That's what happened in my area when POTUS was here a couple of weeks ago. Interestingly AF1 showed up on ADSBExchange coming across the state to landing at LAX. The Sheriff launched two of their helicopters for an event the next day, and were told by CHP to go away

 

[hruskacha]

That's what happened in my area when POTUS was here a couple of weeks ago. Interestingly AF1 showed up on ADSBExchange coming across the state to landing at LAX. The Sheriff launched two of their helicopters for an event the next day, and were told by CHP to go away

I know secret service has boots on ground weeks ahead.

 

[Token]

This may be a question more suited for an actual military forum, but I thought I'd throw it out here in hopes someone could offer some insight.

Obviously, it's a huge matter of National Security that our Air Force/military keep a close watch on the skies above America, but just exactly how do they accomplish this? I mean, there's a LOT of airspace up there and keeping tabs on it all seems like a pretty daunting chore.

Sure, I know about NORAD - but aren't they busier keeping tabs on ballistic missile threats from hostile areas of the world? Or if they do indeed keep tabs on the airspace above us, how do they accomplish this? Do they have multiple radar sites around the country linked together and providing feeds back to their command center? Or do they just have a couple more powerful radar systems that do this? Or do they rely on AWACS aircraft covertly cruising around the country to provide them their surveillance?

As others have said, radar is a powerful tool, both primary and secondary.

However, there are other tools, such as passive tracking systems. There are various vendors offering solutions to this problem (passive geolocation), from people like Rohde & Schwarz to ERA (VERA-NG).

What about, for example, when The President hops on board AF1 and decides to take a flight somewhere? I've watched AF1 on ADS-B a time or two, and it seems there's never any type of airborne surveillance aircraft flying around keeping an eye on the airspace around AF1. Are they likely there and just hiding their position data? I understand that MilAir aircraft have many capabilities, such as spoofing their ADS-B and whatnot. Just wondering what really takes place here.

And possibly AF1 does not (typically) have such surveillance aircraft around because it has its own ability to monitor the airspace around it? The sensor suite on AF1 is, I would be, quite complete. Sure, maybe it does not have an AWACS like radar on board, but, that is not the only way to monitor airspace.

T!

 

[dbrescia]

This may be a question more suited for an actual military forum, but I thought I'd throw it out here in hopes someone could offer some insight.

Obviously, it's a huge matter of National Security that our Air Force/military keep a close watch on the skies above America, but just exactly how do they accomplish this? I mean, there's a LOT of airspace up there and keeping tabs on it all seems like a pretty daunting chore.

Sure, I know about NORAD - but aren't they busier keeping tabs on ballistic missile threats from hostile areas of the world? Or if they do indeed keep tabs on the airspace above us, how do they accomplish this? Do they have multiple radar sites around the country linked together and providing feeds back to their command center? Or do they just have a couple more powerful radar systems that do this? Or do they rely on AWACS aircraft covertly cruising around the country to provide them their surveillance?

What about, for example, when The President hops on board AF1 and decides to take a flight somewhere? I've watched AF1 on ADS-B a time or two, and it seems there's never any type of airborne surveillance aircraft flying around keeping an eye on the airspace around AF1. Are they likely there and just hiding their position data? I understand that MilAir aircraft have many capabilities, such as spoofing their ADS-B and whatnot. Just wondering what really takes place here.

I also understand my questions are pretty specific in nature, and while some people may know, they may not be able to answer, and that's okay.

Thanks!

I'm coming in to this discussion very late, but thought I'd reply and possibly shed some light on your concern. To be clear, I will not address classified sources, methods, systems, incidents, or divulge any information which could be damaging in any way to national security. For any person (military or civilian) who ever held a clearance, the oath we took does not expire even though our clearance and access does. In addition to any oath, investigation, polygraph, etc. we most likely signed specific nondisclosure agreements which may or may not have expiration dates. My individual TS/SCI SI/TK access lapsed sometime after 2010 when I "retired" from the aerospace-defense industry. I served in the AF over 25 years on active duty prior to that and transitioned in 1999. My military as well industry assignments related to your question included: Hq Air Force Space Command; Hq US Space Command as well as US Central Command (both unified combatant commands under the DoD); components of NORAD; and--quite some time ago--Strategic Air Command (SAC). All that stated, my "direct access" to any associated information is only as good as 2010.

I'd like to address why you don't see an AWACS E-3 and/or JSTARS E-8 loitering in the vicinity of AF-1. The reality is AWACS technology relies on look-down radar systems and JSTARS look-down and look-out radar. The later is critical for battlefield integration of data between ground and air forces--not really an efficient use of such expensive resources held in limited numbers. As for AWACS, the aircrew would typically fly loiter patterns around areas of interest and although I'm intimately familiar with radar systems, I'm not an E-3 pilot. My assumption though would be that flying to monitor an individual aircraft might be challenging for a number of reasons we can't discuss. Further and like JSTARS, we don't have pile of aircraft and/or aircrews just sitting around waiting to follow DVs around on travel. The other services have aircraft with similar capabilities; however, the same logic applies. If we have limited numbers of expensive surveillance systems, it stand to reason that they don't fly 24x7x365 being the dedicated "eyes and ears" for NORAD. You also mentioned "spoofing" ADS-B by the military aircrews. You should know that military aircraft are authorized by the federal government to simply turn off ADS-B based upon circumstances and of course national defense. I know lots of folks enjoy using various web sites to track and catalog the travel of military air assets and they have success and satisfaction publishing their findings. Although day-to-day, benign sorties are in fact very discoverable. Anyone who believes that high-priority missions are flown "in the clear" is delusional. If Joe Scanner and Airshow Bobby can scrutinize ADS-B data, so can our enemies. Thinking back to my SAC days in the late 1970's, our nuclear triad was cocked, locked and loaded underground, undersea, and in the air. Can you imagine the consequences of an armed B-52 or FB-111 being tracked and subsequently shot down over key geographical locations across our country? ADS-B did not exist back then, but adversaries did fly up on our borders and still do. The threats have not disappeared with technological advances; instead, it's become a threat multiplier.

Those who already responded are, IMOP, right-on with respect to unclassified monitoring and protection of our airspace. It's really a "team effort" in the sense it takes many agencies at many levels to effectively manage our skies and keep the country safe. Over the years new players have emerged. The end result is that responsibilities have been shared or transferred depending upon budgets, capabilities and resources. Our aerospace defense systems are a collective and not a single entity. They are a key part of overall Integrated Tactical Warning and Attack Assessment (ITW/AA) for the US. Both of the following images come from Global Security's web site and although dated and anything but official, they illustrate well how the collective of resources is comprised. No surprise that NORAD and their Cheyenne Mountain Complex are integral and at the top level of this impressive effort. No longer classified, two military programs exemplify a small sampling of positive outcomes that should make everyone feel safer. You can research the NORAD Tactical Intelligence Cell (NORTIC) and the Caribbean Basin Radar Network (CBRN) on the web. You may have to dig deep to find detailed specifics, but the basics are there in the clear. The NORTIC no longer exists and CBRN, although pared down, is still active.

Bottom line: We are safe in the US and Canada. I would love to elaborate more on the space systems, but I don't feel that would be prudent. Just be confident in how all of our vast technology meshes together to keep us safe and strong. Implementing the US Space Force to join our other long-standing component commands demonstrates that we are following a very detailed roadmap. Most importantly, please thank a military veteran! Hope this helps.

David

 

[sprman1955]

Good write up.I worked on the FPS-124 SSR radar cool setup really enjoyed testing them when new ,nice to see them still in use! Did work on the Mose S too!

 

[dbrescia]

Good write up.I worked on the FPS-124 SSR radar cool setup really enjoyed testing them when new ,nice to see them still in use! Did work on the Mose S too!

I hesitated about responding. Did not want to string anyone along WRT wanting more information and/or confirmation. Also, don't want to deal (and won't) with "challenges" to what I posted or criticism as being "Mr Know-It-All". Did my best to color between the lines when it came to what may be sensitive or confidential information, and avoid anything directly classified. At the same time I understand why the government holds their cards close, but that only begs questions from folks who want and deserve reassurance. It's becoming more and more difficult for the powers that be to deny, deny and deny again.

Although I have no direct experience with the systems you worked on, thank you very much for what you did! My experience came mostly from the design and implementation side--that means my O&M skills certainly were not up to par with folks like yourself. Sort of got thrown in to the deep end of the radar pool when the Caribbean Basin Radar Network (CBRN) was in development back in the late 1980's. Assigned then to Electronic Systems Division at Hanscom AFB outside Boston. We were evaluating transportable phased-array systems to be deployed in critical areas outside our borders. That meant unadvertised sponsorship by governments in other countries. Worked closely with both Westinghouse (now Northrup Grumman) and General Electric (now Lockheed Martin) in Baltimore, MD and Syracuse, NY respectively. In the end the Westinghouse AN/TPS-70 phased-array S-band transportable was selected. Very impressive system for the time, and it has an amazing BIT/FIT that afforded high operational availabilities and ease of troubleshooting and repair. Columbia still has assets in-country, but the other locations can't be discussed. The -70's worked in concert with the Tethered Aerostat Radar System (TARS) deployed along the southern US border over open water. Believe CBP now owns TARS. You can deduce how this sub-segment of ITW/AA afforded other uses. After that I was involved in larger terrestrial phased array systems to include PAVE PAWS (mentioned above by Mikejo), Over-The-Horizon Radar (OTHR) and even early space-based radar (SBR) development. See good article at The Space Based Radar Plan | Air & Space Forces Magazine for more detail on how SBR was integrated. Since retiring I just sit in the cheap seats and marvel about all the amazing technology out there! Sure do miss being in the mix.

David

 

[PACNWDude]

NORAD Air Defense Sector

Yes, WADS and EADS is a good one to listen to as well. Western Air Defense Sector and Eastern Air Defense Sector. Great advice you provided to OP.