Alberta Solicitor General and scanner law

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xlq771

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Does anyone know why the Alberta Solicitor General & Public Security Ministry thinks that a license is required to own a scanner? Their website states that a license is required, under the section of the website that deals with private security. I sent them an email asking about the incorrect information, and was told that I was the one who was wrong.
 

BC_Scan

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You might not like this

I see nothing that says you can't own a scanner,
what I have read is simply verbatim what IC has said in relation to digital scanners, and we all know what that means.
WTF would you question the Solicitor General in this manner?, they have to post a position and that is theirs , unless you are in Government and wan't to effect change shut the hell up, I am sorry to flame you on this one but without background on your post I don't know what else to say.
All this might serve is to hasten the implentation of digital/encrypted radios comms which prohibit our listening enjoyment .
Allready in BC the analog portion of the rc's is going full time dig/enc. It's allready bad enough that Mototrbo/Kenwood NXDN are killing the airwaves with digital product.
I guess I get worked up when I see that the law of the land is questioned in this manner.
Whatever happened to being discrete?
 

robertmac

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What type of scanner are you talking about? Analog, Digital? When the original Digital capable scanners first came on the market, a license was required and included with the scanner. Not sure if this is a fact under any Radio Communication Acts or not. Not sure if it is still in force or not. Sheriffs are probably getting their noses out of joint since some of their coms. can be monitored. Would be interesting to hear from others again on this subject. Not sure if this falls under what little enforcement jobs the Sheriffs are trained to perform. I didn't know they were getting into Radio rules as well. If so, should make it interesting for Truckers who often operate without licenses and using illegally modified ham radios. I don't have a problem if the Sheriffs were allowed to do this! Might clean up some of the unnecessary fowl words and interference to licensed users of radio coms..
 

smason

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Wow! Very interesting.
For the Google impaired, here's a snippet from their website "Information on Starting a
Private Security Guard and/or Private Investigation Agency":

"SCANNERS
Analog
Section 9(2) of the Radiocommunication Regulations prohibits the use of
police scanners, unless you have written permission from the police service you
are monitoring. You are then required to apply for a radio license through
Industry Canada.
Digital
Digital scanners are illegal in Canada unless, you have a specific exemption
through Industry Canada."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

I wonder if this "law" is specific to private security operations only?
 

robertmac

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Have heard the one of Digital Scanners, but can someone please define a "police scanner"? I know police departments have loaned radios to news medias, and I have heard reference to "police scanners". I am not sure what the definition of a "police scanner" would be. However, I would not doubt that the Alberta Government would sneak something like this into a Provincial Act somewhere/somehow. They are great at stating they want Government Departments to be transparent, but more and more they are coloring everything in black. Are we headed to a "Police State"? Just think aobut this and open you eyes. You will see the answer is becoming more and more YES! But I have to ask the question why? Are too manny legit scanner listeners starting to post and say things that they should not be? Are too many criminals still using scanners to commit crimes? I think we all have to open our eyes to what is going on!
 

Jay911

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The quoted section refers to using a scanner in a professional capacity, for the purpose of doing a job. As far as I recall from my own non-lawyer interpretation of the published laws (i.e. Radiocommunications Act), you can't divulge what you hear on a scanner, or use it for personal gain. If you are using it in doing your job, that's for personal gain. If you are licensed to use those channels, though, that validates your use of those channels, no matter what you use to receive them - scanner, two-way, talking parakeet, etc.

As for the digital bit, it's an ages-old issue that I refuse to get involved in anymore until some hard and fast rules and reasons for those rules become prevalent.
 

SCPD

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For a good time and long belly laugh, visit your local IC office and ask for a digital scanner license.
 

SCPD

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I have been pulled over twice by CPS, both times I have turned my scanner down, and been complient with any and all questions asked. I received no tickets or infractions about my scanner or my driving these are standard check stops and routine pull overs.

I can't see them giving you much of a hard time unless you are a complete ass to them or your scanner is cranked up full tilt when they pull you over. You have to be a shady person and give them a reason other wise you are just a normal joe. I use my scanner for other things then listening to cps. I could care less half the time I hear traffic talking about where to eat or dispatch yapping about 10-7's that are crazy out of their minds.

I just enjoy knowing what is going on. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, and most law enforcement feel the same way. That is why they are out protecting our streets.

Also asking IC for a digital scanner license, they would probably only issue you one if your work IE: something tied into police required it. IE: Private eye, or surveillance.
 

Heterodyne

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Does anyone know why the Alberta Solicitor General & Public Security Ministry thinks that a license is required to own a scanner? Their website states that a license is required, under the section of the website that deals with private security. I sent them an email asking about the incorrect information, and was told that I was the one who was wrong.

This subject has been beaten to death on various other forums and email lists.

There is absolutley no requirement to possess any license, certification, ticket or permit in order to purchase, own or possess a radio frequency scanner.

There is absolutley no requirement to possess any license, certification, ticket or permit in order to purchase, own or possess a DIGITAL radio frequency scanner.

There is no application form available for such a license, certification, ticker or permit, nor is there any regulation, law or bill requiring one.

The only official mention of such a thing was an industry canada circular issued over a decade ago mentioning the possibilty of restricting the sale of digitial-capable scanners to professionals, public safety workers or those who possess an amateur radio license. However, such circulars are not official mandates, and absoultley nothing came of it.

The only piece of legislation on the books pertaining to scanners (other than the mandates in the RCA), is the provincial law in Manitoba restricting the use of scanners in automobiles. But, I know nothing about it.

You may own, use, possess and purchase scanners anywhere else in Canada with absolutley no fear or restriction (other than those laid out in the RCA).
 

davidmc36

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This subject has been beaten to death on various other forums and email lists.

There is absolutley no requirement to possess any license, certification, ticket or permit in order to purchase, own or possess a radio frequency scanner.

There is absolutley no requirement to possess any license, certification, ticket or permit in order to purchase, own or possess a DIGITAL radio frequency scanner.

There is no application form available for such a license, certification, ticker or permit, nor is there any regulation, law or bill requiring one.

The only official mention of such a thing was an industry canada circular issued over a decade ago mentioning the possibilty of restricting the sale of digitial-capable scanners to professionals, public safety workers or those who possess an amateur radio license. However, such circulars are not official mandates, and absoultley nothing came of it.

The only piece of legislation on the books pertaining to scanners (other than the mandates in the RCA), is the provincial law in Manitoba restricting the use of scanners in automobiles. But, I know nothing about it.

You may own, use, possess and purchase scanners anywhere else in Canada with absolutley no fear or restriction (other than those laid out in the RCA).

Fabulous, clear, and accurate description of the REAL truth.
 

robertmac

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This will not be a factor when digital scanners become useless when Alberta becomes encrypted. [I know we are not sure what will happen, but with FOIP and all the secrecy going on with government, encryption seems to be more popular. Hum, may 1-2 years of scanning left. Time to look for a new activity? Digital cameras seem the way to go, maybe a DSLR.
 

Jay911

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I can guarantee that most fire agencies in my area don't want to (have to) go encrypted. Back when the Needs Assessment was being filled out for the AFRRCS, the only reason that the majority of the users said they needed encryption capability was because the RCMP had made it known that they were going to demand encryption capability for their users, and with as little communicated as that, the other emergency agencies chose to say they needed it in order to communicate with the RCMP (which is a regular occurrence, of course).

What I mean by that is there will still be lots of stuff to scan.
 
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Heterodyne

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This will not be a factor when digital scanners become useless when Alberta becomes encrypted. [I know we are not sure what will happen, but with FOIP and all the secrecy going on with government, encryption seems to be more popular. Hum, may 1-2 years of scanning left.

Oh for heaven's sake...

I've been hearing this Chicken Little nonsense for years.

I remember when Trunking became popular, people were gnashing their teeth about the 'end of scanning' and that we all should just sell our scanners before they become useless.

Then, when digital came along, the same people were bringing out the same old and tired arguments about how the end of scanning is nigh.

Just because *you* won't be able to listen to *your* local PD doesn't mean the hobby is dead. Lots of stuff out there to listen to.

Most of the 'interesting' stuff is done on MWS anyways, so local PD isn't really all that interesting to listen to anymore.

But by all means sell your scanners if you want... I'll buy them, I'll even give you half of what they are worth.
 

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One of the main holdups with system-wide encryption for any agency is key management. The hot-headed know-nothings who go to these "planning" and "assessment" meetings often don't understand the technical limitations associated with going "fully secure".

On a APCO-16 system (SmartZone 3.x and 4.x), every subscriber radio and DIU3000 (for dispatch consoles and interconnects) requires manual key-variable management. This means some lacky from the radio shop--or trained personnel, has to manually key a radio every time a new radio/device is added, a radio loses keys or whenever a key-variable is changed. This takes TOO LONG and cannont be done in real time. It's also a major headache and accounts of hundreds and hundreds of ongoing maintenance hours.

For small surveillance cells or special purpose units (ERU, SWAT, drugs, vice, major crimes, etc) this isn't that big of a deal. Many of these groups don't require communications with dispatch either--and if they do, they can use a secondary talkgroup, or simply go clear voice.

Why must all of this be done manually? Because APCO-16 systems don't support Over-The-Air-Rekeying (OTAR), which is pretty much essential for system-wide encryption and security.

Move into full Project-25 trunks...(ASTRO25 from Motorola). The infrastructure supports OTAR. Radios are programmed with Shadow Keys which are used to secure the data involved during the rekeying process. It's all automated. Manual user intervention is rarely required unless some retard in the field does a key erasure by fiddling with certain keypad sequences.

While full-time encryption may seem like the bomb, it comes with some very serious safety problems.

To ensure operational security, the administrators may program the radios for forced secure mode. This means they cannot transmit in the clear on a given talkgroup, regardless of the position of the encryption switch.

Let's say the user accidentially dumps their keys. Now they are unable to contact dispatch, and dispatch is unable to hear them, as their radio will not allow transmission to occur because the programming is secure-strapped and the key is missing. (An error tone presents.)

Most systems that are encrypted system-wide have an emergency work-around. The emergency button (aka help, panic, whatever) is programmed that so when activated, the radio will go into clear mode for the duration of the emergency.

The smart way to implement system-wide encryption would be to utilize the secure-select switch, so users can go to digital/clear mode if required. The only problem is that there are far too many users who aren't aware they're transmitting in the clear, and can compromise an entire secure net because of bits and pieces of information they give up while operating in the clear. It all boils down to user training.

Hopefully this posts helps people understand a litlte bit about the secure issues...
 

Have_Teeth

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As for having nothing left to monitor when the local PD goes encrypted...there are many other ways to get the same information you'd hear on the PD talkgroups/channels...they just might not be in real time.

- Monitor highways/road maintenance channels (they get called to barricade at major MVCs)
- Monitor public transportation communications (street closures at major MVCs or scenes...rerouting too)
- Fire and EMS
- Search VHF/UHF/900 for FLEX or POCSAG paging activity. You'll be suprised at what you may find.
- Utility companies are called to major fire/hazmat scenes
- Tow trucks (although they may be delayed if police are holding a serious collision scene)
- Remote-to-studio broadcast links...traffic reports.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
 

Jay911

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's also possible to make a talkgroup secure-only, is it not? So that radios with secure capability will transmit in secure mode on that talkgroup regardless of the switch position.
 

Have_Teeth

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's also possible to make a talkgroup secure-only, is it not? So that radios with secure capability will transmit in secure mode on that talkgroup regardless of the switch position.
Talkgroups and conventional channels can be programmed for:

Select
Secure
Clear

The system manager can also provision the talkgroup for secure on the backend, so any clear transmissions would be rejected...or vise versa. It's normally not changed from the default provision of "both".
 

Heterodyne

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As for having nothing left to monitor when the local PD goes encrypted...there are many other ways to get the same information you'd hear on the PD talkgroups/channels...they just might not be in real time.

- Monitor highways/road maintenance channels (they get called to barricade at major MVCs)
- Monitor public transportation communications (street closures at major MVCs or scenes...rerouting too)
- Fire and EMS
- Search VHF/UHF/900 for FLEX or POCSAG paging activity. You'll be suprised at what you may find.
- Utility companies are called to major fire/hazmat scenes
- Tow trucks (although they may be delayed if police are holding a serious collision scene)
- Remote-to-studio broadcast links...traffic reports.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

Not to mention:

- Taxi
- Public Transit
- Security Companies
- Railway
- Airband
- Cordless phones
- Amateur Radio
- Business radios
- FRS
- GMRS
- rental radios
- Low power systems
- Intercom
- Citizens Band
- Car racing
- Transportation
- Marine
- Military
- Data decoding
- DX

And these are just off the top of my head. Anyone who takes a quick look and says "Scanning is dead" needs to get a clue.
 
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