Amateur P25 popularity…

[BMDaug]

Hey everyone, I know there are some other threads that touch on expense of P25 radios in general, but why isn’t P25 more popular with hams now that prices have become more reasonable (especially if shopping used)? There are some really cool features implemented in the P25 CAI standard like individual calling and there are lots of used public safety radios that are affordable. It’s also great for potential interoperability during a legitimate disaster as most if not all P25 radios are part 90. I know there are many digital modes, with various popularity. I just wish everyone would agree on a digital standard that is as ubiquitous as good old analog. It just feels to me like P25 is gonna be around for a while and that makes me more interested in it as opposed to buying lots of radios covering various digital modes, which may or may not be relevant in five years.

What are the benefits, other than cost, of other digital modes over P25? Does anyone know of a chart somewhere comparing the standards? I know there are many P25 ham repeaters around the country and I just wonder why we can’t standardize a digital mode! Any thoughts?

-Brian

 

[mmckenna]

Hey everyone, I know there are some other threads that touch on expense of P25 radios in general, but why isn’t P25 more popular with hams now that prices have become more reasonable (especially if shopping used)?

Cost is still pretty high, even on used radios. Hams are usually a cheap lot. You need to consider the cost of the repeater, cost of P25 test gear, programming knowledge, etc.

There are some really cool features implemented in the P25 CAI standard like individual calling

Yes, but all the digital modes I know of have that. It's not specific to P25.

and there are lots of used public safety radios that are affordable.

True. However, many of the used public safety radios have been beat to hell. It's possible, but rare, to find a low priced public safety grade P25 radio in really good shape.

To be fair, one of the ideas behind P25 was that if public safety agreed upon a "standard" digital mode, it would drive prices down to affordable levels. That failed to materialize.

It’s also great for potential interoperability during a legitimate disaster as most if not all P25 radios are part 90.

Ham licenses do not grant any permission to communicate on public safety frequencies, even in legitimate disasters. Anyway, analog is more of a standard if you look at NIFOG VHF and UHF frequencies.

I know there are many digital modes, with various popularity. I just wish everyone would agree on a digital standard that is as ubiquitous as good old analog. It just feels to me like P25 is gonna be around for a while and that makes me more interested in it as opposed to buying lots of radios covering various digital modes, which may or may not be relevant in five years.

I agree 100%. I see ham clubs 'buying' into the digital mode du jour. Yes, it's cool that we have a lot of options, but it would be nice if there was one that all hams could agree on. That'll never happen. If anything, I'd see DMR as the common choice after analog. DMR seems to be much more widely accepted by the ham community, and there are a lot of new low cost DMR radios on the market, including multiband radios, which hams love….
Other than radios I have at work, I've held off buying any digital radios for ham use. Just not enough interest on my part to buy into any one system. I don't belong to a ham club, so I'm not going to get into it that way.

What are the benefits, other than cost, of other digital modes over P25? Does anyone know of a chart somewhere comparing the standards? I know there are many P25 ham repeaters around the country and I just wonder why we can’t standardize a digital mode! Any thoughts?

-Brian

Cost is the big one.
P25 has been around for a long time. It's pretty established, but some aspects of it are still being developed/modified. It's widely accepted in the public safety community and has a lot of support.
The 'ham only' digital modes are a problem, in my mind. They splinter the hams up into digital cliques. That's fine with me, I don't care, but it doesn't seem to be helping things.
D-Star is sort of getting orphaned.
System Fusion is pretty much the same way.
DMR seems to be most popular
P25 seems to be about bragging rights and carrying around an APX everywhere.

DMR is really nice and has some great features. It's also affordable for cheapskate hams.
I run a lot of NXDN stuff at work, and I'm happy with it, but it hasn't been adopted widely by hams, and that's OK.

If I was going to invest in a digital radio for ham use, I'd go DMR. Bigger user base, more repeaters, better linking, more options.

But to each their own. People have their favorites and will swear by them (or at them…)

 

[kb5udf]

I'll weigh in my 2 cents. I believe that around the time p25 ham repeaters gained much traction in the way of numbers, they were a limited niche due to cost and possibly because you were limited to monobanders. Furthermore, most of us hams around that time (even the rich ones around me) saw no practical advantage for p25 phase 1 over good old FM, at least none worth the cost. Now that p25 phase 1 used, monobanders are more affordable, multiband radios remain costly, even used for p25. At the same time DMR is emerging as one of the most widely adopted digital modes for hams and offers some features similar to p25 phase 2 [2 talk paths per frequency/repeater] AND affordable dual band radios.
If you don't mind monobanders and still want commercial quality gear, you can get it for DMR for far less than p25 I or II would cost new; I have 2 very nice commercial DMR radios which are brand new.

 

[dcr_inc]

Harris p5100's are in the sub $50.00 range.. There's a ton of them around.. Not a bad radio for P25 Ham use

 

[K6GBW]

There's a variety of reasons why P25 hasn't become prevalent, but probably the biggest is that Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood don't make ham radios for it. The radios and repeaters are mostly Motorola and they have to be purchased used. Then there's the whole programming issue. Plus, at the end of the day, what does a P25 radio do that an analog FM radio won't? With DMR offering dual time slots, a lower cost, and cheap radios its no wonder it's becoming the most popular digital voice mode right now. All that said, here in Los Angeles we have a decent number of P25 repeaters, including a linked system that covers pretty much the whole county.

 

[BMDaug]

I think part of it is just knowing what to look for and where to look too… there’s just not a lot of info about Harris radios unless you dig, and it’s easy to buy the wrong thing if you don’t understand the Harris platform.

I just bought six Harris P7100ip VHF P25/analog radios with batteries, antennas, and chargers with programming cable for about $1100. You can get them even cheaper if you don’t need some of the specific software features I was looking for. In addition, a pretty nice P25 repeater is under a grand if you know where to look. That’s what I’m looking for next!

I agree that without more manufacturers making radios for amateurs which include P25 capabilities, interest will by default remain low. I personally love P25, partly because all of my vhf and up gear is part 90, but I also just like long lived standards. The digital du jour is not my thing either. P25 radios can be bought new from Kenwood, Moto, and Harris and the benefit for me is better reception than analog when dealing with weaker signals.

On the two time slot thing, I’m genuinely interested in how that works when trying to make contacts. Can you monitor both time slots at the same time and then choose which time slot to respond on? I’ve never owned a DMR radio so I don’t have any first hand experience. Like I said, I’m into P25 for it’s ubiquity and for the better reception a digital mode offers when dealing with weak signals.

Thanks everyone for the great conversation!

-B

 

[N1XDS]

Would like/love to see more amatuer radio operators explore the P25 culture/digital mode even though some of the radios are expensive like the Motorola APX series and the Harris brand of radios like the XG-75, XG-100P and the new series XL line. I always been happy with the P25 digital mode since owning becoming interested in it along time ago.

I think why some amatuer radio operators aren't interested is the cost of the programming software, cables and radios. A interested radio operator can find used radios normally cheap all depends on the radio condition, flashcode, encryption and what all it comes with.

For the radios i talk on is the Motorola APX 6000XE and the Harris XG-100P unity I never had problems with these two radios and they work great on P25 with no issues and great sound. I use a Motorola XE 500 microphone with the APX 6000XE radio and received great feedback from others saying how great it sounds.

 

[mmckenna]

On the two time slot thing, I’m genuinely interested in how that works when trying to make contacts. Can you monitor both time slots at the same time and then choose which time slot to respond on? I’ve never owned a DMR radio so I don’t have any first hand experience. Like I said, I’m into P25 for it’s ubiquity and for the better reception a digital mode offers when dealing with weak signals.

Thanks everyone for the great conversation!

-B

To be fair, P25 -can- do two slot TDMA. It's known as P25 Phase 2.
Older radios won't do it, you need something a little more modern and that's going to cost more money.
As was said above, the knowledge required to set up a good radio for P25, and for the repeater, isn't something that's commonly out there in the ham community. Yeah, there's lots of YouTube videos, but there's a ton of bad info out there.

As for DMR, it depends on how you set up the radio.
Usually with the linked systems, timeslots are assigned for specific uses.



As for P25, Analog, DMR, NXDN, Fusion, D*Star, whatever for ham use, it depends on whatever floats your boat, what your budget is, what you want to play with today, what you have access too, etc.
P25 is great, but it really doesn't have any features that NXDN or DMR doesn't.

Come to think of it, I've got a P25 VHF hand held sitting here next to me. I should program it up for one of the local P25 ham repeaters and give it a try.

 

[BMDaug]

To be fair, P25 -can- do two slot TDMA. It's known as P25 Phase 2.
Older radios won't do it, you need something a little more modern and that's going to cost more money.
As was said above, the knowledge required to set up a good radio for P25, and for the repeater, isn't something that's commonly out there in the ham community. Yeah, there's lots of YouTube videos, but there's a ton of bad info out there.

As for DMR, it depends on how you set up the radio.
Usually with the linked systems, timeslots are assigned for specific uses.



As for P25, Analog, DMR, NXDN, Fusion, D*Star, whatever for ham use, it depends on whatever floats your boat, what your budget is, what you want to play with today, what you have access too, etc.
P25 is great, but it really doesn't have any features that NXDN or DMR doesn't.

Come to think of it, I've got a P25 VHF hand held sitting here next to me. I should program it up for one of the local P25 ham repeaters and give it a try.

You definitely should! I am familiar with phase 2, but only as it pertains to trunked systems. I’m not sure how to use it in simplex or if it pertains to P25 common air interface… I was kinda under the impression that P25 CAI was always phase one. I have phase 2 on my unity radios but the P7100s don’t do phase 2.

That’s why I was asking about DMR and two time slots as it pertains to hams. Are there people out there making contacts using one time slot or the other? Does that make it potentially more difficult to make contacts or respond to people? Having multiple time slots in a commercial setting or public safety setting makes tons of sense, but how does that division help hobbyists? A genuine question… I’d really like to know how to navigate that.

I wish I had P25 repeaters near me. I’m trying to get site space to set one up! I think it would be a really great learning experience for me and I could in theory implement additional features like radio text link and in-band GPS if I had a host set up and allowed affiliation to hams (I think lol)!

-B

 

[chrismol1]

It really is a niche thing...And you have to want to do it. The one P25 repeater near me is operated by a person involved in commercial/public safety radio and the few users who have the interest and knowledge of public safety/commercial radio and understand the programming, obtaining programming software and that's where its lost on many hams

DMR is difficult enough with many hams and that's with ham made radios and software. Many hams just want a premade codeplug like putting a zip into a scanner and getting on the air. Otherwise the P25 repeater here offers amazing coverage and clarity from areas where you wouldn't think possible from a handheld

 

[SQP]

BMDaug, if your in the Denver area, there's VHF P25 machine that's waiting for you already. And yes, IT'S LISTED.

 

[K7MFC]

Hams are usually a cheap lot.

Ha - I literally snorted/laughed when I read this

 

[footage]

To be fair, P25 -can- do two slot TDMA. It's known as P25 Phase 2.
Older radios won't do it, you need something a little more modern and that's going to cost more money.
As was said above, the knowledge required to set up a good radio for P25, and for the repeater, isn't something that's commonly out there in the ham community. Yeah, there's lots of YouTube videos, but there's a ton of bad info out there.

As for DMR, it depends on how you set up the radio.
Usually with the linked systems, timeslots are assigned for specific uses.



As for P25, Analog, DMR, NXDN, Fusion, D*Star, whatever for ham use, it depends on whatever floats your boat, what your budget is, what you want to play with today, what you have access too, etc.
P25 is great, but it really doesn't have any features that NXDN or DMR doesn't.

Come to think of it, I've got a P25 VHF hand held sitting here next to me. I should program it up for one of the local P25 ham repeaters and give it a try.

The operator of a P25 repeater in the Oakland Hills told me that one person used it. And they weren't there when I tried for a QSO.

 

[WX4JCW]

I've had one or 2 QSOs on P25, Usually, DMR is more packed, I have both but honestly most of the time I just really have nothing to talk about, and mostly I like doing Skywarn stuff

 

[K7MFC]

honestly most of the time I just really have nothing to talk abou

You are not alone friend - I just like listening

 

[mmckenna]

Ha - I literally snorted/laughed when I read this

Yeah, until Baofeng makes P25 radios, it'll never be popular.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

P25 Phase II, TDMA works only with trunked systems, not simplex or conventional repeater . It seems silly as DMR does it easily. As far as I know there isn't even an IntelliRepeater configuration.

 

[MTS2000des]

It's about quality vs. quantity. One has to have modest proficiency with P25 subscribers, even more so with repeaters and networking. We operate a Quantar with a closed reflector. Users all have background in technical operation of LMR or commercial wireless and it's a great oasis away from the kerchunking roger beep scratchy, noisy CCR boxes some analog repeaters have become.

Networking P25 repeaters is not that hard but it isn't plug and play by any means. Aside, the audio quality of a properly tuned/aligned with current DSP a P25 radio can bring versus scratchy static filled ancient analog is pleasing. The cost of entry isn't all that high if one knows where to look. Motorola, Kenwood, EF Johnson, Tait, Vertex Standard, Harris/MA-Com and even Midland made a plethora of P25 subscribers and much of it can be found for under $200 or less. Of course one has to source the software, programming cables, etc but that is true with any commercial radio albeit analog, P25, NXDN or DMR.

The part of amateur radio that appeals to many is making their own way. There is room enough for all of us to enjoy.

 

[mmckenna]

The operator of a P25 repeater in the Oakland Hills told me that one person used it. And they weren't there when I tried for a QSO.

That's kind of what I'd expect.
Most of the analog repeaters around me are dead, and there's a ton of them, way more than what's needed. Adding more repeaters, especially with a not-so-common digital mode seems like a waste of electrons.
But as MTS said, it's a great option for those in the know. I'd love to have an option like that around me, but I doubt there are enough hams with P25 radios to make it useful.

 

[chrismol1]

Yeah, until Baofeng makes P25 radios, it'll never be popular.

Once baoturds start doing P25 and the hams accidentally hit a mode button for P25, they will say "Wow it isn't scratchy anymore! This is great!"

Then they will complain how bad P25 sucks when the quality control of baofeng shows up and blame P25 when their horrible off freq P25 baoturd doesn't work as good as another one and it comes in all garbled