Amateur P25 popularity…

[chrismol1]

Teach me, Obi Wan.

Like this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES-256 | eBay

Or this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES Dim Light | eBay

Yes, I know. Ebay is not necessarily the best place to shop for this sort of thing.

recased in linda wang aftermarket housing for resale. wait until someone is selling a whole bunch for sale in a lot. They used to be 40-50 a piece in a lot of 10 for 400 bucks that's likely where these came from. Then you can recase them and sell them for 200 bucks like this guy. At least there used to be weekly buy it now listings for CAGE code XTS2500's in lots of 10 or 20 for cheeeeep

 

[surfacemount]

OP25 can be configured to transmit as well as receive voice, with built-in speech codecs and mods to be fully compatible with P25(FDMA), NXDN, DMR(BS), YSF, or DSTAR. OP25 is free (GPL) and open source software.


It's available today requiring only a PC, free software, and an analog radio (or SDR). FM radios that are optimized for "9,600 packet" or "satellite" usage (i.e., radios having a direct mod input) will probably work best.

I wasn't aware you could transmit with OP25 yet. Interesting.

Sounds like the HackRF. With one of these you can transmit all five of the aforementioned modes at one time on separate frequencies. There is another mode, known as "fakecc" which transmits two channels at once: a P25 control channel and a (FDMA) voice channel.

Still, neither of these are out of the box solutions, and neither is hand portable. I was referring to a device that is already done, and just requires the loading of a personality/codeplug/mission plan into it to work.

The TIA might disagree with you.

P25 Standards Documents & Specs

Project 25 Technology Interest Group

project25.org

You knew exactly what I was saying. In case you didn't, it is more of a framework than a set-in-stone, completed, finished 'standard'. Phase II started in the 90's iirc.

Teach me, Obi Wan.

Like this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES-256 | eBay

Or this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES Dim Light | eBay

Yes, I know. Ebay is not necessarily the best place to shop for this sort of thing.

Can you load an entire conventional personality in the XTS via FPP? I thought it was limited, but maybe I am thinking of the version that needed the dongle attached in order to make major changes. You definitely can do it in the customer programming software, but that's not a discussion for here lol.

 

[N4KVE]

I’m retired, & so is a good friend. We go to air shows, ham fests & other interesting gatherings. We usually use Moto XPR6580’s on simplex because they are small, & light. But we drove from Palm Beach to Atlanta to go to the ham fest here. So we decided to use our P25 radios because they haven’t been used in a while. He used his XTS2500, & I used my SRX2200 on UHF. The audio difference was substantially better on P25. Who knows why, but it was much better.

 

[BMDaug]

This thread has really blown up! I never implied P25 was better from a technical standpoint. From an experimentation standpoint, I appreciate the variety of modes, but it has definitely splintered the hobby and now, to communicate with as many people as possible the financial investment is greater than if a single digital mode had been adopted from the beginning. It’s not the operator’s fault, it’s the manufacturers fault, but now I’d need three more radios to talk to everyone. It’s too late to choose a standard. That’s like putting a shattered vase back together…

I guess my point is that if there was going to be a standard, I’d prefer it was one that was used by public safety, as this would drive cost down as demand increases and manufacturers could trickle features down from top tier public safety radios to more affordable radios without a huge R&D budget, however, they did not choose that path and now we suffer. Yes, we potentially have tons to explore, but my brain doesn’t work that way.

Maybe it’s just me, but I prefer to learn a standardized set of knowledge that forwards the end goal, which is communicating effectively and efficiently and be able to hone that skill set. Instead, I’m looking at learning half a dozen variations of the same idea and then having to make a bunch of smaller investments to talk to folks when I could make an investment into good standardized equipment and then hone my more tactile radio skills like antenna design and implementation. Perhaps this is why I like LMR so much. I like to tinker, but I also like to have a tactical comms plan and it’s impossible to do this in a comprehensive way without a half a dozen radios.

I’m too far from Denver to hit that repeater (I’m 150 miles away), but I’m working on getting a P25 repeater set up around here. There are several good repeater options floating around right now! I’m looking at a hybrid analog/P25 UHF. I guess I’m more of a depth guy than a breadth guy.

Anyway, this discussion is fantastic! Thanks everyone! And thanks for giving a practical example of how both time slots get used on a DMR repeater! That is pretty sweet!!

-B

 

[mmckenna]

It’s not the operator’s fault, it’s the manufacturers fault, but now I’d need three more radios to talk to everyone. It’s too late to choose a standard.

All of the amateur digital portable and mobile radios made will do analog. Same with all but one Motorola LMR radio. While I agree this is a manufacturer issue, hams could be setting up mixed mode repeaters to allow everyone to enjoy. Ham clubs building silos isn't helping. When they set these repeaters up, they limit their use, then complain about no one using the repeater.

I guess my point is that if there was going to be a standard, I’d prefer it was one that was used by public safety, as this would drive cost down as demand increases and manufacturers could trickle features down from top tier public safety radios to more affordable radios without a huge R&D budget, however, they did not choose that path and now we suffer. Yes, we potentially have tons to explore, but my brain doesn’t work that way.

A lot of the main LMR digital modes all use the DVSI chips that support AMBE/IMBE. What makes the difference is the software that encodes the audio.
Take a look at the Kenwood NX-5000 line of radios. They'll do P25, DMR, and/or NXDN.
The standards are there, they just need to be adopted into the radio software. That software takes storage and isn't free, but it isn't expensive, either. Manufacturers could make this happen if they wanted, but they probably see some value in keeping the customers tied in to a specific mode (System Fusion/D*Star). I seem to remember at one point Yaesu giving System Fusion repeaters to ham clubs for free or really discounted prices to get people locked in.

 

[mass-man]

DFW area has half a dozen of the free Fusion repeaters on the air…never used them! I’m just enough of a contrarian while P25 is the former PS darling of radios, I’m trying to drum up interest in a 2 mtr NXDN repeater!

 

[mmckenna]

DFW area has half a dozen of the free Fusion repeaters on the air…never used them! I’m just enough of a contrarian while P25 is the former PS darling of radios, I’m trying to drum up interest in a 2 mtr NXDN repeater!

I've got VHF NXDN gear at work. I'd love to give it a try. I don't think anyone around me is using it.

 

[BMDaug]

@mmckenna ya those kenwoods look promising. Now put all three band offerings in one radio and I’m sold! Harris could add other digital modes to the XL line and be done with it, but they won’t do that either… like I said, you can’t un-shatter the vase, but you are definitely right that clubs could help immensely with cross mode systems!

-B

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I've got VHF NXDN gear at work. I'd love to give it a try. I don't think anyone around me is using it.

Hey, I've got some NXDN gear at work that I don't use either!

(It's taken me 5 minutes to get to this point as I can't stop laughing over my comment...those who know me, know why)

@mmckenna ya those kenwoods look promising. Now put all three band offerings in one radio and I’m sold!

See my signature.

 

[mmckenna]

@mmckenna ya those kenwoods look promising. Now put all three band offerings in one radio and I’m sold! Harris could add other digital modes to the XL line and be done with it, but they won’t do that either… like I said, you can’t un-shatter the vase, but you are definitely right that clubs could help immensely with cross mode systems!

-B

VP8000 Product Teaser

KENWOOD Viking VP8000 Product Teaser

info.efjohnson.com

What remains to be seen is if they release it in a Kenwood version that will support P25, DMR and NXDN. Hoping they will.

As for mobiles, that's what the NX-5000 line is. Rather than cramming it all into one deck they allow you to stack the RF decks you want.

 

[mmckenna]

Hey, I've got some NXDN gear at work that I don't use either!

(It's taken me 5 minutes to get to this point as I can't stop laughing over my comment...those who know me, know why)

I should have clarified...
I'm using it, just not sure if any hams are in my area.

Feel free to bring yours to APCO this year and I'll be happy to give it a good home.

 

[prcguy]

The examples you show are similar to what I've purchased but I'm not familiar with that specific seller. The UHF mod III range 1 versions I've been buying are military surplus PRC-153s and have a very dim back light and top LED. They are 380-470MHz analog/narrow/P25 and can be pushed into the 480s with diddled software. They will have FPP enabled and AES-256 encryption at the very least and when I contacted several sellers they were willing to do $125 since the market is flooded with this model. You just have to keep checking eBay and contact a seller immediately with an offer when the right model comes up.

A few weeks ago I got two more for $125 each from a different source and they were aligned, in new cases with new antennas and the displays were modified back to normal brightness. They look and work like new.

Teach me, Obi Wan.

Like this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES-256 | eBay

Or this: Motorola XTS2500 Model III UHF (380-470 MHz) P25 Digital Astro FPP AES Dim Light | eBay

Yes, I know. Ebay is not necessarily the best place to shop for this sort of thing.

 

[prcguy]

On my XTS2500s the FPP channels will program tx/rx frequency and tx/rx PL, DPL or NAC and also toggle between analog and P25. The bandwidth and channel name are also programmable. No dongle required, just press FPP and scroll through the menu.

In the radio features it lists Q52, Federal Government Front Panel Programming Enhancement and Q53, FCC Conventional Front Panel Programming And Radio Cloning, among other features.

Can you load an entire conventional personality in the XTS via FPP? I thought it was limited, but maybe I am thinking of the version that needed the dongle attached in order to make major changes. You definitely can do it in the customer programming software, but that's not a discussion for here lol.

 

[devicelab]

Just to add my .02 to this thread...

P25 is attractive and cool because not everyone has it. You won't get hams dribblin' on about their recent surgery or recent hemorrhoidal flare-up. The radios can be had for a fair price but yes, some brands work better than others.

The downsides. Not everyone has it -- so the P25 repeaters can be awfully quiet. Even those that are linked across different bands are awfully quiet. Propagation with respect to terrain can be a frustrating experience. Propagation with respect to RF density (in the area) can be frustrating. The age/condition/maintenance of the P25 repeater can also be a big variable. Simplex P25 actually works really well but then there's that terrain issue.

In this area, there are VHF/UHF/900 P25 repeaters and they're all very good -- as long as you're in a good spot. Even on a mobile radio the RF energy doesn't matter if you're not in the antenna's footprint. P25 needs that quality of signal to decode properly. Analog is a lot more forgiving there.

I think it really excels in low-RF areas and wide open spaces. If you must deal with terrain or heavy RF then I think cheaper options should be considered. (The exception to that is security. I believe P25 is still the most secure but someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

EP DMR is still very good for the price point. Hard to beat for any commercial business trying to watch their overall costs.

PS. I will say that the audio quality is excellent on the APX8000XE. The XTS radios are still very good but can't hold a candle to the APX in terms of audio quality. That's just my opinion however.

 

[AK9R]

It’s not the operator’s fault, it’s the manufacturers fault...

I don't think it's the manufacturers' fault. The Japanese amateur radio association developed D-STAR. In the beginning, Icom was the only manufacturer to produce radios using the protocol and they took things a step further with some repeater magic. Yaesu later decided to get into the game and thought they came up with something better with System Fusion. Both manufacturers thought they were providing a technical advancement for amateur radio.

It’s too late to choose a standard.

I disagree. Amateur radio users could decide among themselves which protocol they prefer and leave the non-chosen mode to die.

I guess my point is that if there was going to be a standard, I’d prefer it was one that was used by public safety, as this would drive cost down as demand increases and manufacturers could trickle features down from top tier public safety radios to more affordable radios...

A public safety standard? I think that's a myth. APCO P25 is pretty much a standard for public safety in the U.S., but there are agencies buying DMR and NXDN systems because they generally cost less than what Motorola or Harris wants to charge them for a big P25 system. I don't know what public safety agencies use outside of the U.S., but my guess is that it's not P25. TETRA is popular in Europe and the Middle East. Don't know about Asia. DMR is very popular world-wide for business systems because it's an international standard and there are so many manufacturers making equipment for it.

In a previous post, I touched on why I don't think DMR, or any system developed for commercial or public safety, is suitable for amateur radio. Yes, I know that the FCC has turned a blind eye to this, but I think an amateur radio digital voice protocol should carry the callsign of the transmitting station in the data packet. DMR, NXDN, and P25 don't. They carry a number that the receiving station must look up in a database of numbers and callsigns. D-STAR and System Fusion do carry the sender's callsign. But, as you say, the vase has been broken on this and nobody seems to care except me. I'll go back to yelling at clouds.

Maybe it’s just me, but I prefer to learn a standardized set of knowledge that forwards the end goal, which is communicating effectively and efficiently and be able to hone that skill set.

We have that. It's called narrow-band analog.

I seem to remember at one point Yaesu giving System Fusion repeaters to ham clubs for free or really discounted prices to get people locked in.

Yaesu never gave away repeaters for free. They did sell the DR-1X to clubs for $500. The price has gone up a little for the DR-2X.

Icom had a different twist on this in the early days of D-STAR. If your group bought X number of D-STAR user radios at regular price, Icom would give you a repeater.

 

[mmckenna]

Yes, I know that the FCC has turned a blind eye to this, but I think an amateur radio digital voice protocol should carry the callsign of the transmitting station in the data packet. DMR, NXDN, and P25 don't. They carry a number that the receiving station must look up in a database of numbers and callsigns. D-STAR and System Fusion do carry the sender's callsign.

NXDN will transmit a radio alias that can be a text string. Makes it nice in my application since I don't have to write conversion tables.
The NXDN radios will also send CW ID on NXDN.

We have that. It's called narrow-band analog.

Amen.

Yaesu never gave away repeaters for free. They did sell the DR-1X to clubs for $500. The price has gone up a little for the DR-2X.

Icom had a different twist on this in the early days of D-STAR. If your group bought X number of D-STAR user radios at regular price, Icom would give you a repeater.

OK, I knew it was one or the other. Thanks for the clarification. $500 for a repeater isn't bad.

 

[BMDaug]

I don't think it's the manufacturers' fault. The Japanese amateur radio association developed D-STAR. In the beginning, Icom was the only manufacturer to produce radios using the protocol and they took things a step further with some repeater magic. Yaesu later decided to get into the game and thought they came up with something better with System Fusion. Both manufacturers thought they were providing a technical advancement for amateur radio.

I disagree. Amateur radio users could decide among themselves which protocol they prefer and leave the non-chosen mode to die.

A public safety standard? I think that's a myth. APCO P25 is pretty much a standard for public safety in the U.S., but there are agencies buying DMR and NXDN systems because they generally cost less than what Motorola or Harris wants to charge them for a big P25 system. I don't know what public safety agencies use outside of the U.S., but my guess is that it's not P25. TETRA is popular in Europe and the Middle East. Don't know about Asia. DMR is very popular world-wide for business systems because it's an international standard and there are so many manufacturers making equipment for it.

In a previous post, I touched on why I don't think DMR, or any system developed for commercial or public safety, is suitable for amateur radio. Yes, I know that the FCC has turned a blind eye to this, but I think an amateur radio digital voice protocol should carry the callsign of the transmitting station in the data packet. DMR, NXDN, and P25 don't. They carry a number that the receiving station must look up in a database of numbers and callsigns. D-STAR and System Fusion do carry the sender's callsign. But, as you say, the vase has been broken on this and nobody seems to care except me. I'll go back to yelling at clouds.

We have that. It's called narrow-band analog.

Yaesu never gave away repeaters for free. They did sell the DR-1X to clubs for $500. The price has gone up a little for the DR-2X.

Icom had a different twist on this in the early days of D-STAR. If your group bought X number of D-STAR user radios at regular price, Icom would give you a repeater.

Right, and P25 was created around the same time as D-star. ICom could have pooled resources and gotten into that game at that time instead of going propriety. Yaesu, could have jumped on board and the standard could have matured much faster. But like I said, it didn’t have to be P25. It’s just unfortunate that each manufacturer has the “we can do it better” philosophy, which, while definitely giving us more options, comes with a price for admission to each platform and keeps us from all talking to each other. So it’s great to have the idea that you’re advancing the hobby in some additional way, but isn’t the end game of the hobby communicating with people? Maybe that’s where I’m missing the point…

I was trying to agree with you about part of the problem with choosing a standard being negating a lot of people’s investments, but I guess that sentiment got lost…

APCO 25 is a standard… in America for sure and yes probably a lesser extent worldwide. It’s the standard that the NIFOG uses, and in America, it’s used by more public safety organizations than any other. It’s the one digital standard that is included in more brands of radio than any other and it has the backing of the federal government when it comes to acquiring grant money for public safety comms platforms. National interoperability is based on it and it is also very secure, which the three letter agencies love. I guess it just depends on how you define a standard.

The whole vase thing was supposed to reenforce that I agreed with you about the splintering of the hobby due to the plethora of standards and now it’s the focus of your frustration… Sorry I ever made the analogy.

-B

 

[hill]

We got a few VHF ham P25 repeaters in the area, but none near home. There is one by work that is analog and P25, but never heard anyone on P25, but do try it out with the TK-5210 from time to time. Another that I need to program into the farther South.

Looking at the repeaters in the area a lot more P25 on UHF, than VHF. May have to pick up a TK-5310 to try.

Would be nice to do P25 simplex like when walking around during hamfests, but would need to know what frequencies to program in before going. I see same hams walking around at these events with P25 capable radios like XTSs and APXs. I played around with testing P25 on my TK-5210s at home and it works well.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

VP8000 Product Teaser

KENWOOD Viking VP8000 Product Teaser

info.efjohnson.com

What remains to be seen is if they release it in a Kenwood version that will support P25, DMR and NXDN. Hoping they will.

At this point, no one at EFJ can answer that question because the parent company hasn't told us their full intentions with the hardware (which is standard Japanese business practices). And we still can't answer the question of whether or not 3rd gen features (which haven't been officially announced) will trickle down to 2nd gen hardware. Of course if I were looking for a specific feature for a potential refresh (such as single pane fleet management capabilities of Armada) and I had a system that was currently support by one product line and not the other...I would be throwing hints to my MR to see if volume refresh would be something to motivate currently unplanned system support into the development roadmap.

 

[BMDaug]

At this point, no one at EFJ can answer that question because the parent company hasn't told us their full intentions with the hardware (which is standard Japanese business practices). And we still can't answer the question of whether or not 3rd gen features (which haven't been officially announced) will trickle down to 2nd gen hardware. Of course if I were looking for a specific feature for a potential refresh (such as single pane fleet management capabilities of Armada) and I had a system that was currently support by one product line and not the other...I would be throwing hints to my MR to see if volume refresh would be something to motivate currently unplanned system support into the development roadmap.

Exciting potential but frustrating not knowing the plan! Being able to run multiple decks on the mobiles is nice for actual vehicle or even base station purposes, but something man portable would be the bees knees! I don’t spend enough time in the car to bother permanently installing radios and at this point, the radios I install would be worth more than the car itself lol!

-Brian