Amateur P25 popularity…

[millrad]

Bottom line: ham radio is a hobby, not a profession. I personally don't want to invest multitudes of thousands of dollars into most aspects of this hobby, unless it's a portion of it that I really love. Since I'm not among the affluent, I have to keep the lights on and food on the table before buying expensive toys.

 

[alcahuete]

I think an amateur radio digital voice protocol should carry the callsign of the transmitting station in the data packet. DMR, NXDN, and P25 don't.

They do. NXDN and DMR both do it.

I disagree. Amateur radio users could decide among themselves which protocol they prefer and leave the non-chosen mode to die.

It has already been decided. DMR is the clear winner. The other modes already are dying or are dead.

 

[sonm10]

It has already been decided. DMR is the clear winner. The other modes already are dying or are dead.

Yaesu Fusion has a HUGE following here in Minnesota. D Star is probably the next runner up. So not dead.

 

[alcahuete]

Yaesu Fusion has a HUGE following here in Minnesota. D Star is probably the next runner up. So not dead.

Compared to DMR, both are dead. The last numbers I heard for D-Star was around 50,000 users throughout the world. DMR has almost double that just in the US alone. And Fusion has WAY fewer users than D-Star. Might be big in Minnesota, but certainly isn't anywhere else.

 

[mikewazowski]

I disagree. Amateur radio users could decide among themselves which protocol they prefer and leave the non-chosen mode to die.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

They do. NXDN and DMR both do it.

That's not exactly a true statement. OTA aliasing isn't actually a part of the DMR Tier 2 standard which means that OTA Ailiasing is a vender proprietary feature and thus should not be expected to function across vendors. Key example, Motorola XPR6550 doesn't support OTA Aliasing where 2nd gen Motorola TRBO radios do with the correct firmware but can only alias with other gen 2 Motorola radios which support the feature.

As for OTA Aliasing over NXDN...since <75% of the NXDN equipment out there is going to be Kenwood NextEDGE, it's really irrelevant as to whether or not it is part of the NXDN standard because Icom is going to try and remain relative with iDAS regardless.

For what it's worth, P25 radios can support OTA Aliasing as well...just vendor proprietary. Personally I think amateurs get way to hung up on aliasing...

 

[alcahuete]

That's not exactly a true statement. OTA aliasing isn't actually a part of the DMR Tier 2 standard which means that OTA Ailiasing is a vender proprietary feature and thus should not be expected to function across vendors. Key example, Motorola XPR6550 doesn't support OTA Aliasing where 2nd gen Motorola TRBO radios do with the correct firmware but can only alias with other gen 2 Motorola radios which support the feature.

As for OTA Aliasing over NXDN...since <75% of the NXDN equipment out there is going to be Kenwood NextEDGE, it's really irrelevant as to whether or not it is part of the NXDN standard because Icom is going to try and remain relative with iDAS regardless.

For what it's worth, P25 radios can support OTA Aliasing as well...just vendor proprietary. Personally I think amateurs get way to hung up on aliasing...

Absolutely correct. But the statement that it doesn't exist, is equally incorrect.

 

[SQP]

PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!...if you're a lover of digital repeaters, the TRUE way to enjoy ALL is MMDVM and have it networked. This way you can have the best of...ALL WORLDS...per repeater owner, of course. Btw, if had every digital rig on a table, can you really tell who's transmission it is while blindfolded?!?!?!?! I CAN'T!!!

 

[prcguy]

So a full featured top of the line at one time XTS2500 with P25 and front panel programming in the $125 range is an expensive toy? Its a heck of a lot less than most Yaesu, Icom or Kenwood HTs, even the non digital ones.

Bottom line: ham radio is a hobby, not a profession. I personally don't want to invest multitudes of thousands of dollars into most aspects of this hobby, unless it's a portion of it that I really love. Since I'm not among the affluent, I have to keep the lights on and food on the table before buying expensive toys.

 

[surfacemount]

APCO 25 is a standard… I guess it just depends on how you define a standard.

A standard for me is something in 20 years is still as valid as it was when it was promulgated. Now, it's like AES. Which also is a standard. But is it AES-128, AES-256, or some kind of fruity AES-OFB? P25 has been kicking around since the 80's. Lots of people bought into P1 systems, only to realize nope, now here comes P2, deprecating their investments. Meanwhile, I can still play every cassette and CD that I own on a number of devices by any number of manufacturers. So, what's next?

That's all I am trying to say there. Perhaps I am off base.

 

[AK9R]

Personally I think amateurs get way to hung up on aliasing.

As long as users identify by voice, then I see no issue. If users rely on only their assigned number transmitted in the packet as their station identification, then I think it's a problem. Now, back to yelling at clouds.

 

[AK9R]

A standard for me is something in 20 years is still as valid as it was when it was promulgated.

The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from.

 

[mmckenna]

Hey, that's my line!

Yeah, too many 'standards'.

P25 -is- a standard, and a well documented one.

Project 25 Compliance Assessment Program

Interoperable equipment that complies with public’s safety standards is vital to mission critical communications. The Project 25 Compliance Assessment program (P25 CAP) provides an independent method to verify that public safety radio and communications equipment is compliant with the standards...

www.nist.gov

.

One of the big problems originally was that certain coMpanies liked to add additional features to Make it a bit More theirs. They'd add things that locked the users into one specific brand.
That lead gullible end users to think there was only one real radio brand that would work and anything else was inferior. Most of the time if you peeled the label off the radio, the end user couldn't tell you what it was.

 

[AK9R]

So a full featured top of the line at one time XTS2500 with P25 and front panel programming in the $125 range is an expensive toy?

What does the programming software for that radio cost?

 

[mmckenna]

What does the programming software for that radio cost?

Comrade Robert, we in Mother Russia offer all manners of programming software for free on glorious .ru websites for your enjoyment.

 

[prcguy]

I don't know, I've never had to "buy" it.

What does the programming software for that radio cost?

 

[KevinC]

Hey, that's my line!

Yeah, too many 'standards'.

P25 -is- a standard, and a well documented one.

Project 25 Compliance Assessment Program

Interoperable equipment that complies with public’s safety standards is vital to mission critical communications. The Project 25 Compliance Assessment program (P25 CAP) provides an independent method to verify that public safety radio and communications equipment is compliant with the standards...

www.nist.gov

.

One of the big problems originally was that certain coMpanies liked to add additional features to Make it a bit More theirs. They'd add things that locked the users into one specific brand.
That lead gullible end users to think there was only one real radio brand that would work and anything else was inferior. Most of the time if you peeled the label off the radio, the end user couldn't tell you what it was.

My biggest issue with the P25 standard is it doesn’t specify HOW you are to implement certain features. So MSI does it one way, Harris (or whatever their name is this week) does it another way and Kenwood does it another way and so on. I don’t put RELM in that category since they do whatever MSI does.

 

[mmckenna]

Harris (or whatever their name is this week)

GEHARICSSON?

 

[jeepsandradios]

Wow 4 pages in 2 days. Impressive.

So P25. For over 20 years I have been trying to get folks involved in P25 in HAM. All the reasons have been listed above many times. In the end I just use my P25 stuff with close friends and family. I have multiple repeaters some on the air and some off the air right now. I went P25 as I was in public safety and i had access to stuff. Now 20 years down the road I have 3 APX 8500's in my truck and have no desire to install a HAM/CCR DMR, Fusion or what ever other radio. I dont want to say it but alot has to do with funds. I know we all joke about that alot but many hams don't want to spend crap for a radio. My first 2M radio was a HTX202 that I saved for months to get at Radio Shack for a whopping $299.00 on sale. Now many of the hams complain that Baofeng jumped the price $5. The same guys spend $2K on a HF rig. It boggles my mind some days.

So in the end I use P25 because its easy for me to go from work to Ham to Public Safety. I also know the guys on the repeaters are using good quality gear. The best part is there is limited linking on P25. Some linking is done as it was intended with V.24 links and quality parts. To me its all about what you want. If you want to rag chew to some other CCR 3 states away then get a DMR radio and have fun.

 

[MTS2000des]

What he said. P25 is kind of a throw back to when a ham cared about putting QUALITY on the air. No spoon feeding, no "cheap ham" overdriven audio that sounds like an overmodulated CB some truck driver is shouting into, or whisper quiet mouse sounds of a Baoturd endlessly kerchunkerbating a repeater with that stupid roger beep crap (that always comes in at full deviation). Quantars are quality TOP NOTCH repeater stations that REQUIRE proper setup, alignment, firmware and actual SKILLS to put on the air. When done right, they BLOW AWAY any offshore garbage. Receiver pre-amp? Not needed when you use a good filter/duplexer with appropriate TX/RX spacing and a properly tuned Quantar. One can get QUALITY audio from a portable inbound/outbound with a DAQ of 3.4 or higher all day long from 20 miles away whereas some turdy ancient analog repeater cobbled together by a "teknishun" with 6KHz wide transmit deviation and stupid idiot echo box/talking repeater controllers constantly beaconing and barking like a dog next door that won't shut up and one needs a 50 watt mobile with a 5/8 wave antenna to key up these DEAF LEMON kerchunk boxes of "2 mobile rigs and a flat pack duplexer on my back yard push up pole" 1.5 miles away.

Go ahead, call me a snob. But you know I'm right. We as hams should take PRIDE in putting stuff on the air that is QUALITY, demonstrate technical prowess and not just "get her done" whackerism. P25 is like CW is to HF. One actually has to KNOW the theory behind the test pool questions.