I’m in the same boat.. I am used to P25 use and equipment. Also at work I programmed and developed code plugs so that is super easy for me. I like the voice quality of P25 compared to DMR. I like that P25 isn’t as popular as say DMR for the reason as it’s not jammed packed of traffic. I like DMR, but don’t like that say if I am sitting on Arizona 3104 I have to listen to a person from England chatting it up there. I have cheaper XTS/XTL radios and have a few APX radios.
Amateur P25 popularity…
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I have both DMR and P25 capabilities, albeit on different radios. I considered D-Star and YSF at one time, but but quickly ruled these modes out since they were based on single-source suppliers. I play with DMR far more then P25 since there are substantially more DMR repeaters than P25 repeaters in my area.
I know that hot spots offer all sorts of interoperability, but to me, that really isn't what ham radio is all about. Working with a home hot spot just turns your radio into a rather expensive wireless mic.
I'm frustrated by the lack of DMR amateur radios from the major manufacturers. If Kenwood can offer multimode capabilities in their LMR line, why don't they offer it in an amateur radio (multiband) model?
This is turning out to be a very interesting thread.
I know that hot spots offer all sorts of interoperability, but to me, that really isn't what ham radio is all about. Working with a home hot spot just turns your radio into a rather expensive wireless mic.
I'm frustrated by the lack of DMR amateur radios from the major manufacturers. If Kenwood can offer multimode capabilities in their LMR line, why don't they offer it in an amateur radio (multiband) model?
This is turning out to be a very interesting thread.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
It would need to be an entirely new product. The NX-5000 line and it's software is quite a challenge to learn, even for seasoned radio guys. Trying to explain it to a ham with zero/little experience in the LMR world would take a huge amount of effort. Hams would balk at the price.
Essentially they would need a dumbed down radio with dumbed down software and dumbed down firmware. This isn't an attack on hams, it's just reality. LMR and ham are pretty different when it gets down to the details.
Hams would want a VFO, full front panel programming of all the features, a MUCH lower price. Then Baofeng would step in with some POS radio and Kenwood would lose all their investment.
Yes, yes it is.
OK, this is going to be kind of a snarky question. If you'd talk to someone distant from you using a networked DMR repeater, what's the difference between the repeater having an IP connection or your hotspot having an IP connection?
At the end of the day, it's whose internet connection you're using. I don't own a hotspot, so if I want to talk about my physical ailments to someone in another time zone, it has to be on the DMR repeater. But then again, there are some folks that put a hotspot in their car so they always have a connection. Not my bag.
@littona - People want to know about my prostate health, so I have a hotspot in the vehicle. 
It is fun to use with Wires-X and talk with friends in other states or local.
Anyways, the low cost and a friend that is into P25 got me on board. It was blackbox at first, but I figured it out like anything else and later purchased a Quantar. I enjoy XTL and XTS 5000’s at home and in the vehicle with our robust P25 repeaters nearby. For handheld I use an APX, but there are plenty of low cost options for others to join in on the fun. I also setup a friend and newly licensed amateur with his own P25 XTS5000 and an XTVA that he can use at home, or in his vehicle.
Still, if Kenwood 5300’s were ubiquitous, I would probably use DMR quite a bit more due to the audio quality.
It is fun to use with Wires-X and talk with friends in other states or local.Anyways, the low cost and a friend that is into P25 got me on board. It was blackbox at first, but I figured it out like anything else and later purchased a Quantar. I enjoy XTL and XTS 5000’s at home and in the vehicle with our robust P25 repeaters nearby. For handheld I use an APX, but there are plenty of low cost options for others to join in on the fun. I also setup a friend and newly licensed amateur with his own P25 XTS5000 and an XTVA that he can use at home, or in his vehicle.
Still, if Kenwood 5300’s were ubiquitous, I would probably use DMR quite a bit more due to the audio quality.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Oh Knights who until recently said "Ni"...
Infrastructure ownership. DMR and P25 infrastructure are designed to be "air gapped" systems. Meaning an internet connection is not required, all that is required is IP connectivity between two points. One of the nice things about that (which is common place in public safety systems) is that you can add as much redundancy as you want fairly cheaply using dynamic routing protocols, router redundancy protocols, redundant switches, redundant network paths, etc. Now you can use the internet but you don't have to rely on the internet (nor should you). Unfortunately, many amateur radio networks absolutely rely on the internet to provide linking capabilities and in part, Yaesu and Icom are to blame for that mentality with products aimed at amateur radio which require network access to the respective vendor's core infrastructure (or third party infrastructure) in order function.
I think if were were going to see such a product...it would likely be based off the Viking 8000 series hardware with it's multi-band and multi-protocol capabilities. I've made my statements on what I know regarding Japan's overall plans for the hardware though. While I think the NX-5000 multi-deck and VM7000 in their most basic dual band configuration fit a lot of the function (select/unselect band, digital protocol support, large channel capacities, etc) the lack of FPP features will restrict it's use with much of the amateur world.
The essence of my question was...In the realm of linked digital voice systems for amateur radio, what's the difference between using a repeater that is linked to the world using a potentially fragile IP connection or using a hotspot at your house that is linked to the world using a potentially fragile IP connection?
Some IP connections at repeater sites are pretty robust and may even have some redundancy that most people don't have at home. The public safety and commercial realms can afford those back-up plans. In my own county, the state communication system's four towers are linked using both fiber and microwave. OTOH, I know of DMR and IRLP repeaters in Indiana that are linked to the world using cellular modems (aka, air cards). That doesn't sound very robust to me. And, that being the case, why not use a hotspot instead of bothering with a repeater?
And, that leads to my larger concern that due to the proliferation of hotspots, the amateur radio community's reliance on fixed repeaters, especially for digital voice, seems to be waning. Repeaters, even DV repeaters, are being taken off the air due to lack of use. Is this good for amateur radio?
As I said earlier, it's ALL VoIP. There's NO real difference.
You answered your own STATEMENT-- Repeaters, even DV repeaters, are being taken off the air due to lack of use. I'll add this, as I also stated earlier, MMDVM is the TRUE way to go, but how many of those TYPE of systems are available?!?! VoIP is an ENHANCEMENT of the hobby...THAT'S IT.
The lack of ACTIVITY...isn't good for amateur radio!!
Amateur radio is moving on, like everything else. The internet is going to play a key role, whether we like it or not. Hotspots offer what no repeater can. You put a hotspot in your car, tied in to your cell phone, and you no longer have to worry about coverage issues. You don't have to worry about whether or not a specific talkgroup is supported on a given repeater, etc.
Couldn't you do the same thing on Zello? Yep! And that's the issue amateur radio is going to face moving forward. Much of what we have done forever, using repeaters, is going to be accomplished using the internet. It's the same direction public safety is moving. Obviously not good for amateur radio. Personally, I very rarely venture above HF, aside from an occasional visit to 70cm. I don't envision myself being terribly affected by any of it.
Think it depends on the backhaul. The guys who throw a hotspot on top of an XPR and call it a internet connection wont function in a disaster. On the other hand being part of a county system and leveraging MPLS and multiple connections to a P25 repeater will most likely be online and available. I have yet been to a tower site that the ham club had an actual internet connection. All either had some sort of wireless LTE router or a PTP link from the site. I'm sure there are some out there but Ive yet to find one in 30 years of PS work. Doing it on the cheap doesn't benefit anyone and when PS officials see it they tend to understand that its junk.
To each their own, but I’m not a fan of hotspots either… I just don’t think it’s what radio is all about, but maybe I’m just oldschool. It’s Basically a cordless phone. Why go through all of the trouble and expense? I don’t understand.
I enjoy the challenge of working something physically out of reach. I enjoy trying different antennas and seeing how much power it takes to work a repeater. I enjoy the idea of using shared hardware and helping to maintain it. I enjoy the infrastructural challenges associated with running a remote repeater site. I’m no Elmer. I’m definitely still learning, but the utility that radio provides is huge for me.
Perhaps hotspots are more appealing in dense cities where coverage is all over the place but cell service is impeccable… however, where I’m at, cell service is WAY spottier than the repeater coverage so the notion of putting a hotspot in my car literally made me laugh out loud!
Hotspots don’t hurt the hobby from a contact standpoint as long as you have a linked repeater nearby. But it does take the hobby in a totally different direction because you aren’t worried about the physical or environmental aspects of radio like antenna design, propagation etc. and I’m just not interested in making the hobby one more thing to use a computer and the internet for. I do enough of that already.
-B
Not snarky at all and I know it's somewhat hypocritical since hot spots are essentially micro repeaters, but I do see a difference between using a home hot spot and a club/community mountain top IP linked repeater. Now get of my lawn!
I'd still like to see DMR amateur mobiles from the Big Three manufacturers. I can live without the flexibility of the Kenwood NX line--I just want a quality, split mount DMR/FM mobile. Unlike, perhaps some of my fellow hams, I'm capable of learning complex software.
I would have (maybe) already bought an Anytone 578 mobile were it split mount.
I have several P25 repeaters on a network that is RF and microwave backhaul to several other P25 repeaters. No internet at all and the network covers the South Eastern portion of North Carolina.
I also have a DMR repeater that is connected to the NCPRN via a Verizon path. It behaves the same as any other analog machine if the internet goes down, i.e., it still works as a local repeater, except it has two talk paths, vs the one that is on an analog machine.
I also have a DMR repeater that is connected to the NCPRN via a Verizon path. It behaves the same as any other analog machine if the internet goes down, i.e., it still works as a local repeater, except it has two talk paths, vs the one that is on an analog machine.
Even going between the software for the NX5000 and NX3000 is significantly different.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Yeah, it's been frustrating for me.
Did finally build my trunked system files for the NX-3000 line a month or so ago and just edit out what the user doesn't need. Did the same thing with the NX-5900 about 2 years ago. Those softwares were such a marked difference from the previous versions of KPG that it was a tough learning curve.
From my experience, P25 sounds iffy on the MMDVM hardware. It sounds horrible, as does every mode, when someone uses cheaper radios and DMR cross into P25, NXDN or YSF. When it's pure P25, it sounds great. That's probably part 2 of why it never took off, second only to a large majority that can't understand the programming, let alone troubleshooting when the hardware doesn't cooperate.
I may have talked to you on that P25 network this week while I'm down here. The Winnabow repeater coverage is amazing. Those Quantara sound really good.
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