all part of the new world order takeover,they dont want you doing anything that might help YOU.
Amazon Cracking Down on Radio Sellers
- Thread starter RaleighGuy
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spacellamaman
Member
yeah its one thing to sell radios in the US that the FCC would consider verboten....
but violating Mother Amazon's Seller's Terms of Agreement? Heresy! Off with their heads!
Time to stock up on "Pre-Ban CCR's" i guess. Funny, any time there is a "pre-ban" anything, it's almost always in reference to a Chinese product.
Long live the MAK-90!
but violating Mother Amazon's Seller's Terms of Agreement? Heresy! Off with their heads!
Time to stock up on "Pre-Ban CCR's" i guess. Funny, any time there is a "pre-ban" anything, it's almost always in reference to a Chinese product.
Long live the MAK-90!
Thorndike113
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Wow, There are a lot of FCC cops in here. And you wonder why your ham bands are being taken from you or under threat of being taken from you. I have been on a lot of forums online having to do with radio and the same ugly torch and pitchfork mob message is sung. This isn't about type acceptance, its about politics. All your brand name radios are all made in Japan. The Japanese are mad that the Chinese are cornering the market and the FCC is playing this up by using the VALID point that these radios are not type accepted and therefore cause harmful interference. I have been into the radio for 30 years and in that time, the only devices that caused harmful interference to my radios have been TYPE ACCEPTED FCC equipment!!! So that cancels that argument out! The way I see it, If all the Japanese brand name radio companies want to be on top of the market, try making a radio that has more functionality to it for half the price. I don't need 5 radios with different options that will drain my bank account in one shot when I can pick up a Chinese radio for a fraction of the price that does the same thing as the 5 and what do I have to deal with? A loose front end that gets affected by interference? The rhetoric that I see on these sites are scaring most people away. People who have even a slight little want to get into the radio world are being scared away by Wannabe FCC cops who quote these big fancy worded FCC rules with numbers and letters. The rest of the hams are all stuck way down on their HF bands crying that their 30+mhz bands are being taken from them (meanwhile, they NEVER use them) and now, by shooing away any potential hams with large scary rules you basically empty out your frequency spectrum of use and when large companies who have lots of money come around looking for frequency space, the FCC sees money and they give it to them. By you hams and others playing politics and being wannabe FCC police, you are not just shooting yourselves in the foot, your taking your whole bottom half out with a nuclear bomb! I've been in the same situation with other stuff having to do with computer. I am not a computer savvy person when it comes to programming, but the same thing happens there. Well versed computer geeks talk big words and make things look like they cannot be done unless you are smart and gifted and for someone like me who doesn't know anything about it, I just walk away. I can learn it, if someone is nice enough to show me the ropes, and I will pick it up quick. The same goes for ham. You have the same kinds of people who just need someone to guide them, not talk big and bad and quote FCC rules.
I am by no means advocating for purchasing illegal equipment or using it. I am just pointing out how this FCC type accepted thing is more than a rule thing to most of you. You all have turned it political. Just like everything else in this world you have ruined with politics, you are ruining radio with politics! Keep the politics out of radio and stick to what radio is about. Its NOT all about rules. If I had to step back and take an objective opinion, I would have to say most of you make radio look like this - A bunch of guys sitting around with an FCC bible reading rules to each other over the radio. Radio is more than that and as long as you keep the politics in it, the more bands the FCC will take from you and the more people you will scare out of radio. Cell phone technology is winning 50-1 and your kicking the ball into your own goal. Good job!
I am by no means advocating for purchasing illegal equipment or using it. I am just pointing out how this FCC type accepted thing is more than a rule thing to most of you. You all have turned it political. Just like everything else in this world you have ruined with politics, you are ruining radio with politics! Keep the politics out of radio and stick to what radio is about. Its NOT all about rules. If I had to step back and take an objective opinion, I would have to say most of you make radio look like this - A bunch of guys sitting around with an FCC bible reading rules to each other over the radio. Radio is more than that and as long as you keep the politics in it, the more bands the FCC will take from you and the more people you will scare out of radio. Cell phone technology is winning 50-1 and your kicking the ball into your own goal. Good job!
spacellamaman
Member
hmmmmmm...politics.
i knew this thread was missing something
i knew this thread was missing something
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
With all due respect, this blithering diatribe shows exactly why we do need this. Your failure to understand the situation, the reason for the rules and why the FCC is enforcing this does not in any way mean anyone else is wrong.
It just means you fail to understand the situation.
Thorndike113
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And just what is the situation? Trump loving groups storming the capitol? Radios transmitting wider bandwidths? POOR people being able to become HAM RADIO OPERATORS?
The reality is, I have seen this same conversation in many different forums and they all sing the same tune. It is just a bunch of guys who love to sit there and act like if you are transmitting .00000002hertz outside of your frequency, the FCC is going to zero in on you with a satellite and they will find you and take a swat team to your house, confiscate all your equipment, fine you $10,000 and throw you in federal prison for 5 years and if you think they wont, then push their buttons and transmit on your radio. If that was the case, my county dispatch and all the first responders that communicate over radio would be in prison and fined large amounts of money for their radios clearly not sounding clearly within their bandwidth. When people talk like no-it-alls, you remind me of the rednecks I used to know back in the 90's that would claim that if you run more than 4 watts on CB the FCC will find you and throw you in prison. Reality? THEY WONT!!!! If they did, I know a handful of people down south that would have been thrown in prison DECADES ago. To this day they still sit there and transmit loud and clear up into the northeast with their gibberish.
How about everyone just stops the big talk. I have heard stuff go on over the air that would make you cringe and not only did the person not get in trouble, the FCC NEVER got involved. It had me as incensed as you over being .000000002hertz outside the bandwidth. I couldn't figure out how this could happen and I LEARNED that the FCC is more concerned with money. Unless you are causing malicious interference to a public safety agency whether by wider than normal bandwidth or on purpose, the FCC is usually not going to pay attention.
"......this blithering diatribe shows exactly why we do need this...."
So you mean, this is why I need to be silenced? You don't want anyone seeing things for exactly what they are. Enjoy your politics, enjoy your thinking. Its the same as everyone else and you're all entitled to what you want to think. This is why I don't immerse myself in the radio community. I see radio naked. I see it for what it is, not what a bunch of FCC law book bible thumpers say it is. I actually got past the rules and now I am using radio for what it is. I am enjoying building antennas and play with radio propagation etc. Meanwhile, all the hams and other FCC law book bible thumpers are sitting in square 1 still quoting rules. But like I said, you are entitled to what you want to think. I will enjoy the radio without the rhetoric, even if its by myself. One thing to think about, NO ONE on here is the FCC. You are a bunch of radio enthusiasts just like me. Leave the rules to the FCC, and YOU, go use your radios and enjoy them. YOU are not the judge, jury, and executioner. The FCC is. Let them do THEIR job and you go enjoy your radio.
Not understanding the FCC's rules can be addressed by fact-based discussions of the existence and basis for those rules, whether they be one-on-one conversations or many-to-one discussions in an online community. Though, that only goes so far. We can try to help people understand and we can point out to them when they violate the rules, but, in the end, none of us is the radio police.
The thread is about Amazon taking action to "crack down" on sellers of RF-emitting devices. Amazon is perfectly within their rights, as the host for an on-line retailing platform, to establish rules for their sellers and enforce those rules. If Amazon's actions catch some sellers of non-FCC certificated RF-emitters, that's an issue for Amazon and those sellers to address.
Now, let's try to stay on topic.
IMO there is a middle ground to be found here.
If you're using radios to commit clearly illegal acts, like jamming public safety comms, or maliciously interfering with other users' ability to legally use their radios, that's a problem that obviously needs to be dealt with.
But that said, there is a lot of karening going on around here. if you're on a public frequency transmitting within the specified power level and frequency deviation (e.g. not splattering outside the channel), getting bent out of shape over whether the radio is type accepted for the service (going beyond a simple mention that doing so is a violation of the rules) is petty and perhaps a bit spiteful.
The same goes for a business user operating within their licensed frequency with a radio that has a VFO. If they aren't running excessive power, or maliciously interfering with others, sharting in their cappuccino is petty and spiteful.
The same goes for the apparent eagerness to go after everyone using a radio at a public protest, regardless of whether they were involved in any illegal activities while doing so.
IMO, the apparent eagerness of some to subject their fellow citizens to potential fines and arrest in the absence of any actual malicious or dangerous conduct, and their support for banning or further restricting access to radios, is more concerning than the prospect of some bubba using a Baofeng while doing something stupid. We don't ban cars because some people drive drunk, or use them during the commission of crimes. We shouldn't be cultivating that mindset toward radios for the same reason we aren't banning cars.
If you're using radios to commit clearly illegal acts, like jamming public safety comms, or maliciously interfering with other users' ability to legally use their radios, that's a problem that obviously needs to be dealt with.
But that said, there is a lot of karening going on around here. if you're on a public frequency transmitting within the specified power level and frequency deviation (e.g. not splattering outside the channel), getting bent out of shape over whether the radio is type accepted for the service (going beyond a simple mention that doing so is a violation of the rules) is petty and perhaps a bit spiteful.
The same goes for a business user operating within their licensed frequency with a radio that has a VFO. If they aren't running excessive power, or maliciously interfering with others, sharting in their cappuccino is petty and spiteful.
The same goes for the apparent eagerness to go after everyone using a radio at a public protest, regardless of whether they were involved in any illegal activities while doing so.
IMO, the apparent eagerness of some to subject their fellow citizens to potential fines and arrest in the absence of any actual malicious or dangerous conduct, and their support for banning or further restricting access to radios, is more concerning than the prospect of some bubba using a Baofeng while doing something stupid. We don't ban cars because some people drive drunk, or use them during the commission of crimes. We shouldn't be cultivating that mindset toward radios for the same reason we aren't banning cars.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
You are either missing, or completely glossing over many facts. I'm not sure which one it is, I'm going to assume that your intentions are well, but are simply missing some pieces of information.
- I don't care what happens on the amateur radio side. I've been a ham for 30+ years and while I have some vested interest in the hobby and it's survival, I don't really care about which radios are used in the service, as long as they meet the general requirements. On the surface, someone using a cheap Chinese radio on the ham bands is of little concern. An amateur radio being off frequency doesn't matter. With the exception of the 60 meter band, the amateur radio spectrum is not channelized, so using whatever frequency someone wants is just fine. If a radio is a tad bit off it's displayed frequency, big deal.
-I'm all for low cost entry level radios for the amateur radio hobby. If a new ham can only afford a $25 radio, then a cheap Chinese radio is probably a very good path into the hobby.
That said, no one, not even the FCC, is trying to bust amateur radio operators. The only requirement that the FCC has is that the mass produced meet the very loose Part 15 requirements.
What the FCC and Amazon are cracking down on is the non-Amateur radio use of these radios.
-The CCR's I've had my hands on didn't meet the Part 90 FCC rules. It wasn't a "It's sorta close enough" thing, it was WAY out of spec. There are a number of features on the radios that would preclude them from meeting Part 90.
-I've put them on a new/calibrated service monitor. They were over deviating, and there's no way to adjust that. It's poor quality control. One in particular was off channel enough to make it unusable. The over deviation of the radio was enough to cause interference to adjacent channel users. Your average commercial user is not going to have a $40,000 service monitor to test this and would be completely oblivious that their radio was possibly interfering with other users.
-I run a number of public safety radio systems and a number of non-public safety commercial systems. I've had uneducated users buy these radios and try to put them on my systems. As the licensee/representative of the licensee, it's my responsibility to have control over all radios operating on these systems. That includes making sure that all radios meet the FCC specifications, not sort of, not 'close enough', but making sure all the radios operating under our licenses meet the requirements.
Is the FCC going to swoop in and throw users in jail? Unlikely, if they are operating where (frequency/radio service) they are supposed to be, and not doing something incredibly stupid.
Have people been fined/prosecuted for doing stupid stuff with radios? Sure. There no lack of cases where people have purposely interfered with public safety users. It does happen, it has been documented, people have been jailed. But it's not limited to the Cheap Chinese Radios. Buying used commercial radios online is always a path.
What the FCC is trying to do is stop the non-type accepted radios from entering the US market. There is nothing wrong with that. We have laws/rules/standards that exist to protect those users that are following the rules and doing exactly like they are supposed to. Someone being cheap/uneducated buying the lowest cost piece of crap radio they can find on line and using it in violation of those rules should not be protected. Lack of education isn't a valid legal defense. Being a cheap ba$†@®∂ isn't an excuse, either.
The issue we have is that a consumer minded individual just looks on Amazon to find something that looks like it'll meet their needs. The vendors know this, and will claim all kinds of things to make a sale. The consumer 'assumes' that because it's openly sold on Amazon or E-Bay, that it's totally legal. Your average person walking down the street doesn't know the difference between amateur radio, FRS, CB or what the police officer is using. All they know is they want a radio, and they found some cool looking ones on Amazon. That's where the thought process ends.
Again, no one cares what happens on amateur radio. If the manufacturers/vendors would lock the radios down so that was the only place they could be used, and they took the very simple steps of making them meet Part 15, no one would have a problem with it.
Issue is, the Chinese manufactures and vendors don't care. They want to make a sale. The Chinese don't care about US laws.
No one here has ever claimed to be the "radio police". Educated people that work in the industry and trying to explain the truth behind this. Unfortunately what you've done is taken a very complex issue and attempted to distill it down into a simple argument. That doesn't fly.
Sorry for my stupidity, what is a CCR?
12dbsinad
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Cheap Chinese Radio
The term "CCR" as used here refers to Cheap Chinese Radios, mainly the lower tier ones like Baofengs and others with unpronounceable names typically sold for very low prices on Amazon and eBay. Thee radios (typically) have RX/TX coverage of 138-174 MHz and 400-520 MHz and are shipped "wide open" with no restrictions on where they transmit. They also have preprogrammed test frequencies that are all over the spectrum, many of which are allocated to federal or commercial users in the USA, and all of which require some sort of license to use. Additionally, the quality control on these radios is frequently lacking, so they may transmit an off frequency or overmodulated signal.
The big concern is that many inexperienced, non ham, users buy these radios and use them as walkie talkies out of the box which can potentially cause interference to licensed users (including law enforcement and medical). These radios are easy to program via the keyboard or with software, and users can knowingly or unknowingly program to frequencies to which they aren't entitled to use.
Most amateur radio transceivers have software restrictions limiting them to transmit only in the amateur radio bands, although they may be able to receive a considerably wider range of frequencies.
The CCR issue is a tad more complicated, but this is a simple explanation.
reedeb
Member
CCR Bout the same as Radio Shack CBs were to those who had to get the 10 meter rigs and had them worked on so they could use the out of band frequencies AKA the upper and lower channels
I bought a Boefang DMR radio on Amazon. The charger didn't work, which made the radio pretty much useless. I tried to get the seller to give me a new charger and they just jerked me around, promised me a replacement which never came, and offered me a 6.00 refund.. Finally I asked for a full refund and they said I had to return it to them and pay the postage; the postage was more than the radio.
No chargers available on line (DMR 1801) except one I found for 90 bucks.... I called Amazon, they said their sellers were required to pay the postage or provide a US address. The seller did not comply, Amazon refunded the entire amount. I still need a charger, so I had to double down and buy the same radio again, from a different vender.... IN THE USA. UPS is delivering, not China SpeedPAK.
Amazon probably got tired of this sort of thing.
Thorndike113
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No one needs to claim to be. By sitting here quoting FCC rules and (in some cases, not even this site specifically) then coming down on people and saying, "You cant do that or you will be ______________ by the FCC", and in some cases speaking in such a way just short of saying, "Im going to turn you in if I find out you are ____________", then that is putting that person in a way of playing FCC police. I do understand what you are saying when it comes to non hams who dont know anything about radio buying them and using them out of the box. Im all for following the rules so that you dont interfere with other agencies. People should use them responsibly. People should be educated on how to use them. People should research what they are buying. Sellers should be made to FULLY DISCLOSE what the radio actually is and how it works and what you need to program it and use it legally. Instead of putting the heading "Baofeng digital p25 dmr trunked spread spectrum programmable keypad coded squelch analog transceiver receiver", how about they put what the radio actually is and explain how to properly use it. Its not hard for Ebay or Amazon to take a listing down for not being correct or specific. Ive had it happen to me for much less when I used to sell on Ebay. Government needs to stop trying to punish the herd. I actually prefer to use the chinese radios due to functionality and price. I dont have to carry several radios on my belt to do everything I need. I can carry one and it does everything I need it to. I also use it responsibly. 99% monitoring and on occasion I'll jump on a ham repeater and talk to someone.
Im not trying to come off as mad at everyone who posts rules but ive scoured the internet and seen many forums on different sites including this one where every post condemns not only the chinese radios but those that use them. Most posters tell the radio community that the reason ham radio is crumbling is because all these people using chinese radios and then they run off quoting every FCC rule under the sun. Personally, I know better, but for someone who doesnt know anything about the hobby, that kind of rhetoric is scaring a lot of people off. Who wants to get into a hobby where you "might get thrown in prison or get fined large amounts of money for screwing up once"? Some of the posts ive seen makes the FCC look like they are sitting there ready to strike people with lightning bolts if they mess up. I love radio. Ive been playing with it for 30 years now. I would hate to see it die because people are getting scared off. Not everyone is well versed in the radio world like most of us. Let us all portray a better view of radio and keep it alive. Let us try to educate properly instead of preach rules. I know, not everyone preaches rules, but for those that do, STOP. Trying enjoying the radio hobby and helping others. Its not all about the rules.
This is why I love these forums....
Be Safe
Be Safe
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
There seems to be a very fuzzy line between providing fact based education to users and "preaching the rules". I'm glad you can see it with clarity.
I've never preached the lightning bolts thrown form the FCC as punishment for accidental misuse. In fact, I've had to track down harmful interference to several of my properly licensed systems before. That took many hours, a lot of driving and a huge amount of time. When it came down the face to face portion of it, knowing how to speak to the user took some skill and tact. Understanding that the end users don't know anything about the equipment was a big part of it. Carefully talking them through what was happening and how to keep it from happening solved the issue. Didn't involve the FCC, law enforcement, or anything else. We solved it like adults. In the end, we both walked away with exactly what we needed.
The issue we have is that not everyone is going to react the same way to information that is provided. Since I do this for a living, I have my own take on it. You may not agree, and that's totally OK.
One of the best ways to educate someone is to start slow and explain the details and facts. Back up those facts with documentation as proof. Providing documentation to back up what I'm teaching is just part of the job. Best to always go straight to the source. Unfortunately we live in a society where opinions and facts are easily confused. The way to battle that sort of ignorance is to back up what I'm saying with verifiable information direct from the source.
Never once have I attempted to scare anyone away from the amateur radio hobby. In fact, I've helped a lot of people get their licenses.
However, I will continue to educate users on the proper usage of their radios. That's part of what I get paid for at work. Interfering with public safety communications is dangerous. Ignorance is not an excuse.
Bravo. If there's no malicious intent, and the source of the interference is willing to correct the problem voluntarily, there's no reason to get the authorities involved.
But of course if you have someone intentionally doing something malicious and stupid, that's an entirely different matter, and there should be consequences in that case.
Thorndike113
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What youre speaking of is a bit different than what I am talking about. I have known of either accidental or malicious interference to radio systems. You are right in what you say. People need to be educated when it comes to radio, especially when they buy something they are not familiar with. What I have been referring to is not the accidental or malicious interference but the spurious emissions, the "out of band" (bandwidth) issues that many claim come from cheap chinese radios. When I mention the FCC rule quoters, It is the ones who quote the rules on having a signal 2hz wider in bandwidth than they should. I know, and have known guys who are so anal when it comes to this, they will take a scope and measure the bandwidth and pick on the person. I think we may have talking about slightly different things. I am all for the proper use of radios and following the rules and I gather, thats what you are saying here.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I think you are correct.
I don't really care if someone is a bit out of spec. There should be enough buffer between channels to prevent any major issues. It's not always the case, though. Some have used these radios on the GMRS interstitial/FRS channels and interfered with the repeater inputs.
For the record, I've put a couple of Baofengs on a calibrated/new service monitor, and some were fine, some were more than a few Hz out of spec, both over and under.
As for the types that get hung up on this stuff, yeah, some people have too much time on their hands. I'd say "they need to get a hobby", but that hasn't worked out well for some of them. Maybe taking up knitting would be better than amateur radio.
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