Antenna setup without ground

[dragon48]

I starting to have fund with some homemade radio (AM and Shortwave) projects. It's quite annoying to have to run a long wire to a cold water pipe or other suitable ground. I'd like to brew some kind of homemade setup that doesn't require an antenna ground.

Modern transistor A.M./F.M./Shortwave radios work with one telescoping antenna and don't require an annoying ground run. With my home-brew, how can I replicate a circuit or antenna setup that will not require a ground?

 

[majoco]

J-Pole requires no ground - initially invented/designed to be used on airships (Zepp antenna) and now refined (?) to be made from copper pipe for VHF and mounted on an insulated mast. see here...

Google for G2BCX Slim Jim Antenna.

 

[kb6hlm]

All antennas require some type of ground or counterpoise yes even a modern radio and to prove my point attach a ground to that modern radio and you will see what I mean

Think about it like this ....A flash light works fine without a reflector but a lot better with one right?? remember the old rabit ears for TVs it has two sides but if you break one off it still works but not as well

It your interested in a homebrew antenna for shortwave there are lots of antennas to build without requiring a earth ground the J-Pole is one of those exceptions witch works quite well and provides a small gain over a quarter-wave ground-plane antenna however its quite large for HF and may not suit your needs

With most antennas you will still need to have some type of ground radials or counterpoise without using a earth ground otherwise you got a flashlight without the reflector

You could try using a artificial ground however you would still need some type of ground wire or maybe a steal fence

To give you one example of how important a ground is even to that "modern radio" my father in law gave me his new grundig radio because it had very poor receive and all I did was hook my backyard ground rod to it and it came alive ! even I was surprised LOL .....anyway I felt bad and gave it back to him as there was nothing wrong with it its just that we have very bad band conditions right now and its the worse!

Not sure what kind of antenna your planing on ? the best antenna that I have made that dose not require a good earth ground is the (double bazooka) and is excellent for SWL the one I use for 5Mhz and lower is 120 feet long ! that may not be the right choice for you however

 

[prcguy]

Most antennas don't require an earth ground to operate. A center fed or offset center fed is one type and for SW listening, a broad band end fed using a 9:1 or similar balun for matching and a choke balun in the feedline will also operate independent of an earth ground connection. For specific frequencies, a half wave resonant end fed using a 49:1 to 60:1 matching transformer and choke balun in the feedline also works great. For verticals you generally want a counterpoise or radial system, but that is different than an earth ground or connecting to a water pipe, etc.

With any antenna outdoors, the National Electrical Code will require you to ground the antenna or feedline for human safety and this has nothing to do with antenna operation or performance.

All antennas require some type of ground or counterpoise yes even a modern radio and to prove my point attach a ground to that modern radio and you will see what I mean

Think about it like this ....A flash light works fine without a reflector but a lot better with one right?? remember the old rabit ears for TVs it has two sides but if you break one off it still works but not as well

It your interested in a homebrew antenna for shortwave there are lots of antennas to build without requiring a earth ground the J-Pole is one of those exceptions witch works quite well and provides a small gain over a quarter-wave ground-plane antenna however its quite large for HF and may not suit your needs

With most antennas you will still need to have some type of ground radials or counterpoise without using a earth ground otherwise you got a flashlight without the reflector

You could try using a artificial ground however you would still need some type of ground wire or maybe a steal fence

To give you one example of how important a ground is even to that "modern radio" my father in law gave me his new grundig radio because it had very poor receive and all I did was hook my backyard ground rod to it and it came alive ! even I was surprised LOL .....anyway I felt bad and gave it back to him as there was nothing wrong with it its just that we have very bad band conditions right now and its the worse!

Not sure what kind of antenna your planing on ? the best antenna that I have made that dose not require a good earth ground is the (double bazooka) and is excellent for SWL the one I use for 5Mhz and lower is 120 feet long ! that may not be the right choice for you however

 

[ka3jjz]

I'm surprised no one recommended a loop. Loops don't require a ground and are quite good in rejecting many noise sources. We have many commercial and some homebrew loops detailed and linked in our wiki, viz.

https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Loops

and the SWLing.com blog had an interesting passive loop here - only works on HF, not MW, altho there are many MW designs, too...

New indoor passive loop antenna for shortwave

If you're stuck with indoor antennas or restricted space, loops are a great choice....Mike

 

[prcguy]

Yes, especially the W6LVP loop.

I'm surprised no one recommended a loop. Loops don't require a ground and are quite good in rejecting many noise sources. We have many commercial and some homebrew loops detailed and linked in our wiki, viz.

https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Loops

and the SWLing.com blog had an interesting passive loop here - only works on HF, not MW, altho there are many MW designs, too...

New indoor passive loop antenna for shortwave

If you're stuck with indoor antennas or restricted space, loops are a great choice....Mike

 

[ka3jjz]

The OP didn't say in his/her message what radio was being used...

As the OP lists his/her location as NY, NY - if you are actually in the City, an amplified loop like the W6LVP might not necessarily be the best choice, especially if s/he is using a portable. You would need a pretty decent front end - even with extra filtering, something that LVP does do - to resist the multitude of MW, FM, TV, VHF and UHF stuff that could get in. A passive loop is probably a much better bet. It's selectivity is very tight - so much so that you need to tune it every so often. But that tight selectivity is going to be helpful in rejecting anything else not in its passband.

Mike

 

[kb6hlm]

prcguy
Don't think you read all of my posts

You seem like you just want to prove yourself right on everything I say and its getting weird

Read Entire post before you reply to someone !

With most antennas you will still need to have some type of ground radials or counterpoise without using a earth ground otherwise you got a flashlight without the reflector

 

[kb6hlm]

EDIT
You seem like you just want to prove me wrong on everything I say and its getting weird

If you have a hard time understanding me that's fine just ask I'm all ears but trying to prove me wrong is not productive

73s

 

[prcguy]

I will admit I probably didn't read all of your posts. If I missed something in your other posts relevant to your post #3 in this thread I'm sorry. I went back and read post #3 in this thread several times and you did give a couple of examples of antennas that require no ground, which I missed.

My comments were mainly from your statements "All antennas require some type of ground or counterpoise" and "With most antennas you will still need to have some type of ground radials or counterpoise without using a earth ground otherwise you got a flashlight without the reflector", which I don't agree with. Hope that is not too weird.

prcguy
Don't think you read all of my posts

You seem like you just want to prove yourself right on everything I say and its getting weird

Read Entire post before you reply to someone !

 

[kb6hlm]

there are lots of antennas to build without requiring a earth ground the J-Pole is one of those exceptions

Guess you missed that one LOL ......anyway that's fine we will agree to disagree

I don't agree with. Hope that is not too weird

Not agreeing with me is not what I think is weird its your tying to prove me wrong all the time ! Now that's weird !

I have been working with radios and antennas way before your where even in diapers young man

When you get your license please connect me so we can can have a reasonable conversion without all this nonsense


Take care my Friend
KB6HLM

 

[prcguy]

From your callsign we can see when you were born, so when you were about 2yrs old I had built my first 5 tube SW receiver from scratch and was getting pretty good at repairing tube hi-fi equipment for friends. When you were 8 yrs old I had a job at the largest CB manufacturing company on the planet repairing radios. Not trying to prove you wrong, just stating facts.

To keep the thread a little on track, I was asking the same questions as the OP in the mid 60s a few years before you were born and fortunately the FCC engineer in charge of the western states lived next door and mentored me a bit on outside antennas to replace the telescopic whip on our Zenith Trans Oceanic SW receiver. His recommendation was a center fed dipole with a twisted pair feedline back to the radio and it worked real nice and didn't need any ground to make it work.

Guess you missed that one LOL ......anyway that's fine we will agree to disagree





Not agreeing with me is not what I think is weird its your tying to prove me wrong all the time ! Now that's weird !

I have been working with radios and antennas way before your where even in diapers young man

When you get your license please connect me so we can can have a reasonable conversion without all this nonsense


Take care my Friend
KB6HLM

 

[kb6hlm]

Ok you just lost me at "CB manufacturing " LMAO

I may have been wrong about your age however ............. well I'll just leave it at that

That's it I'm out!

 

[lmrtek]

Whether you are electrically connected to ground or not doesn't matter in the world of low frequency rf.
.......
Like it or not EVERY HF antenna you install WILL be using the earth (ground) no matter how hard you try

 

[lmrtek]

Why are so many hams self proclaimed experts with fragile Egos?
They may be a Walmart greeter by day yet they get their ham ticket and they all become engineers on forums.