Antenna tuner for reception too?

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srd84

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Hey. I bought a Yaesu Ft-857D yesterday and since I'm not taking my amradio test until next weekend, I wanted to monitor with it in the meantime. I was planning on buying an antenna tuner yesterday with the radio and using a random wire antenna (with a balun) but the guy at HRO said I didn't need it for reception only for transmitting. So at his suggestion I bought a 75' roll of stranded copper and have it stuck in the center of a BNC/PL259 adapter in the HF antenna port on the rig. I have this wire strung all the way around the room below the crown molding (it flopped down on my girl's head last night. she wasn't pleased.) I get some reception on 20m and Radio Havanna so far. 75' is about 20m right? Is this a coincidence? Anyway my question is antenna tuner for reception too? Isn't the idea to get 50 ohms at the transciever trans/ or recieve? Thanks. I'm still learning as you can see.

Steve
 

ohiodesperado

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Your right, an antenna tuner WILL help you on receive. The radio is going to work better receiving off a 50 ohm in feed. In fact, most guys with antenna tuners will use the noise floor or a received signal to begin tuning their antenna tuner. They will peak the received signal and then tune with the transmitter to finish tuning.

As far as 75 feet for 20 meters. That would be around a half wave if I remember right. The math is 234/f and f being the frequency in Mhz. of course then 468/f would be a quarter wave.

If you have a tuner, and I suggest using one, the best luck I have had is with a an off center fed dipole.
Some folks call it a Windom but that's not fully correct. A Windom works off a ground plane that is below it. An off center fed dipole is a simple dipole with the feed point moved.

I run an off center fed dipole cut at 80 meters. and it works wonders on 80 20 17 15 10 meters. for some reason I get alot of RF in the shack on 40 meters so I don't use it there.

Remember that an OCF dipole needs a 4:1 or 4 to 1 balun.
75 foot of wire is not going to be enough. But in true tight ass style I never went the way of the copper weld or other 'antenna' wire. Find a Tractor Supply or other farm store and buy a role of high tension fence wire. (Not barb wire although it would work, just a PAIN to work with) and use it. The zinc or galvanized works best and is really strong. I have had my wire antenna's in 8 MPH winds and not fail. Also, use the heavy plastic insulators. I have literally stood in the loop to pull tension into the antenna's (I'm 270 lbs) and never seen a failure at any point.

Also, these wire antenna's all but disappear once they are up becasue the wire is small. So for a stealth antenna it's also a good option.
 

ka3jjz

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Hey. I bought a Yaesu Ft-857D yesterday and since I'm not taking my amradio test until next weekend, I wanted to monitor with it in the meantime. I was planning on buying an antenna tuner yesterday with the radio and using a random wire antenna (with a balun) but the guy at HRO said I didn't need it for reception only for transmitting. So at his suggestion I bought a 75' roll of stranded copper and have it stuck in the center of a BNC/PL259 adapter in the HF antenna port on the rig. I have this wire strung all the way around the room below the crown molding (it flopped down on my girl's head last night. she wasn't pleased.) I get some reception on 20m and Radio Havanna so far. 75' is about 20m right? Is this a coincidence? Anyway my question is antenna tuner for reception too? Isn't the idea to get 50 ohms at the transciever trans/ or recieve? Thanks. I'm still learning as you can see.

Steve

There's another factor most newcomers don't completely understand - in order to have a chance at hearing something on HF, you need to keep in mind 3 basic questions;

  • From what part of the world are you trying to hear something?

  • What time of day - is it night or day there?

  • What frequencies may be open to that part of the world at that time?

These 3 questions address the topic of propagation - how a HF signal is bent from one place to another. To gain a basic understanding of this topic takes some time - we are in a very poor propagation pattern due to very low solar activity, and an indoor antenna is a further problem since it will pick up every bit of noise anywhere in the building.

The AE4RV website (which has a flash-based tutorial) on HF propagation is a good place to start. To get there, go to the wiki pulldown (blue toolbar under the logo, practically center) and select 'HF Topics'. Click on HF Propagation (anything in blue is a link) and the link for that website is near at the top.

Knowing when to listen, and where is half the battle. 73 Mike
 

srd84

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Mar 13, 2009
Messages
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Location
Northern Virginia
Thanks for the replies. The flash tutorial was great. The more I learn about radio the more I realize that it is tied in with the very nature of matter and the universe. It was very cool to tune in to 15 MHz and listen to the solar info and watch my atomic clock Casio tick the next minute at the exact moment of the tone. I'm so psyched to continue now that I have a "real" radio. Did you notice that the sunspot activity on the chart appears to be increasing proportionately every cycle?

73 Steve
 

kb2vxa

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Let's get one thing straight, a tuner does NOT tune the antenna, YOU tune the antenna by cutting it to the proper wavelength and using matching devices where required. The word "tuner" is a misnomer, it is an impedance matching L-C bridge that fools the transmitter into thinking it's looking into a 50 ohm load and has no effect whatsoever on the transmission line and antenna side so the man was right, half right.

The half he was right on is transmitting into something other than a 50 ohm load which only allows maximum power output without fold back but the other half of it is when you have a resonant antenna fed at a 50 ohm point you don't need a "tuner". When it comes to receiving you can do it with a random length of wire but a resonant antenna helps enormously. A tuner will do absolutely nothing because the receiver, unlike the transmitter will accept a wide range of impedance. The whole idea is if you want to capture a wave you should use the right trap, an antenna that matches it's length or fractional length. Hey I'm way ahead of you, no silly comments about trap dipoles please. (;->)
 

prcguy

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An antenna tuner will not make a big difference in reception with the various antennas described so far. One hint is the comment below about peaking the antenna tuner to increase the noise floor to find the sweet spot before transmitting. HF reception is governed by signal to noise ratio and the tuner will increase the signal some but will also increase the noise by the same amount. The end result on lower HF bands is little to no improvement in signal to noise.

For dipole type antennas, resonance has virtually no effect on antenna radiation but it does have an effect on feedline loss. If you feed a dipole with very low loss cable or balanced line, you can take say a 40m dipole that is perfectly tuned to 7.2MHz and add or subtract several feet of wire so it now resonates at 6.2 or 8.2MHz and there will be no change in reception or transmission. If there is its from additional feedline loss not due to "resonance" and this is the main reason for using TV twinlead, 450ohm ladder line or open wire line.

In my example above, as the antenna gets larger and approaches a full wavelength it will take on additional lobes and you will eventually notice a change in reception due to increased gain or loss in some directions due to the lobes and so on. By the way, the formulas mentioned below are backwards, 468/frequency is the total length for a half wave dipole and 234/frequency is for a quarter wavelength or one side of a dipole.

Some antenna like a very short loaded quarter wave whip (hamstick, etc) will exhibit lots of loss when not resonant due to the very high Q and there usually fed with 50ohm coax. Cut 6" off one of those and reception goes down the toilet fast, mostly due to increased coax loss. An antenna tuner will make a big difference in this case but its tuning the coax and antenna as a system.

The comment about receivers accepting a wide range of impedance is not true, its got roughly a 50 ohm input same as the transmitter.

One of the most useful things you can do to learn about antennas is find someone who knows how to "drive" EZNEC or similar antenna modeling programs. You can enter any kind of antenna with or without feedline and see exactly how the antenna will perform. You can then make changes in length, height above ground, choose various feedline lengths and impedance and see how it affects the antenna performance.

Antennas are very complex and most people treat them as very black and white, probably from simple experiences with CB antennas or listening to the "experts" discuss antennas on ch19. More often than not those experts are the furthest thing from the truth.
prcguy






Your right, an antenna tuner WILL help you on receive. The radio is going to work better receiving off a 50 ohm in feed. In fact, most guys with antenna tuners will use the noise floor or a received signal to begin tuning their antenna tuner. They will peak the received signal and then tune with the transmitter to finish tuning.

As far as 75 feet for 20 meters. That would be around a half wave if I remember right. The math is 234/f and f being the frequency in Mhz. of course then 468/f would be a quarter wave.

If you have a tuner, and I suggest using one, the best luck I have had is with a an off center fed dipole.
Some folks call it a Windom but that's not fully correct. A Windom works off a ground plane that is below it. An off center fed dipole is a simple dipole with the feed point moved.

I run an off center fed dipole cut at 80 meters. and it works wonders on 80 20 17 15 10 meters. for some reason I get alot of RF in the shack on 40 meters so I don't use it there.

Remember that an OCF dipole needs a 4:1 or 4 to 1 balun.
75 foot of wire is not going to be enough. But in true tight ass style I never went the way of the copper weld or other 'antenna' wire. Find a Tractor Supply or other farm store and buy a role of high tension fence wire. (Not barb wire although it would work, just a PAIN to work with) and use it. The zinc or galvanized works best and is really strong. I have had my wire antenna's in 8 MPH winds and not fail. Also, use the heavy plastic insulators. I have literally stood in the loop to pull tension into the antenna's (I'm 270 lbs) and never seen a failure at any point.

Also, these wire antenna's all but disappear once they are up becasue the wire is small. So for a stealth antenna it's also a good option.
 

majoco

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I agree with the comment that a 'tuner' only matches your 50ohm receiver to the reactive impedance at the end of your random (wavelength-wise) length bit of wire. What a 'tuner' is good at is reducing the effects of strong local transmitters breaking through into the front of your receiver. The tuner won't give you any gain, but it will attenuate the out of band signals that you don't want.

Sort of negative gain really!
 

k2lck

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Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
1
sure

the use of an antenna tuner will enhance reception as well as transmission. there is somekinda theorum that everyone accepts that states that antennas work equally for both... BUT remember that your antenna will start at the output of of the antenna tuner.... there is no substitute for a resonant antenna.... Ed
 
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