Any pilots in here? need help please read.

[cdesigns]

I'm doing some BBQ at my house this past saturday and see this Cessna plane flying around and doing some acrobatics right over my neighborhood, I tried to call the FAA to see if this was legal to do over houses but I only got voicemails.

I recorded this video of the cessna doing the acrobatics, I have a few questions, do cessna's hold the stress this guy was putting into his plane? its illegal to do this over houses? how do I report this to the FAA faster than going thru different options on the phone and at the end hitting a damn voicemail?

He did different kinds of acrobatics worse than the ones I recorded, here is the video. the day was very cloudly too.

Watch on the 1:12sec mark

YouTube - April 17, 2010 Cessna flying low and doing acrobatics over houses

 

[rmiller818]

According to the FARs Part 91.303 says this:

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight -
(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;
(b) Over an open air assembly of person;
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;
(e) Below and altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

Few things. One, are you positive that was a Cessna, such as a 172 or 152 etc? Or is that speculation because it is a small single engine aircraft?
Two, just from the video, the roof of a house keeps coming into view which would make it seem you were not looking straight up but more horizontally which would mean he was not directly over you and therefore could be over sparsely populated area. Even then, how densely is the area you are populated?
Third, the maneuver at the 1:12 mark looks like a spin which is a maneuver that can be performed in a variety of training aircraft in addition to high performance aerobatic aircraft.
Fourth, a Cessna such as a 172 is certificated as a normal category aircraft, meaning it is capable of handling up to 3.8 Gs to -1.52 Gs. Keeping with the 172 example, it could also operate in the utility category which means it could withstand up to 4.4 Gs to -1.76 Gs. Operating in the utility category allows for spins and mild aerobatics. The FAA defines aerobatic flight as "an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight." 91.307 requires occupants to wear parachutes anytime the bank exceeds 60 degrees or the nose up/down attitude exceeds 30 degrees. I don't have a 172 POH to refer to but I highly doubt a barrel roll is permitted. However from a structural standpoint, nearly any aircraft should be capable of a barrel roll as it should only impose about 1 G. (remember the Boeing Dash 80? YouTube - 707 roll )

Other than the Spin and the barrel roll I can't really tell what else he did, may not have been anything really, could have been some chandells and wing overs.

Regarding calling the FAA, without a tail number and this not being in progress I don't know how the FAA would be able to figure out who this was to do anything about it (if the FARs were indeed violated).

 

[cdesigns]

Well I see a lot of Cessna pasing by my house every time and other types of airplanes too, the shape of this plane was very similar to a cessna and the sound too.

He did more "hard aerobatics" before I had the chance to record them. He was doing this for about 30min, all that I heard inside my house was the engine reving up and then shuts off. when I wnet outside to start the BBQ, I saw he went straight up kill the throttle the plane stalled and then went straight down and he hit full throttle and then came up again. I have another short videos and he was in top of me, the camera was pointing straight up while he was passing by.

This happened on April 17, 2010 . and it was recorded around 5:17pm, I was hoping to contact the FAA at the moment but I only got voicemails, dont they record the radars? maybe they can see who was flying in that area at that time, I don't know.

Here is the map of where I live, the red dot is my backyard and the green lines are the views of the camera while it was recording. I know he wasn't flying over the lake. he did fly a lot on the south area on the map wich has no houses, but still.

 

[rmiller818]

Radar feeds are recorded, however, if you are flying VFR you would only show up on the controller's radar as a primary target and if you are using the mode C on your transponder an altitude, nothing else.

One of my instructors once told me a story when he was flying out of PDK in Atlanta. Him and his student were under the class B shelf (perfectly legal) but apparently an A340 got a TCAS alert due to them and had to respond to the RA. They were VFR so the Atlanta Approach controller didn't have any info on them. What he did was put a track on them and followed them all the way back to PDK. As they were landing the approach controller called the PDK tower and asked them to give the aircraft landing a number to call.

Anyways, not to discredit you but I just cannot tell what type of aircraft that is from the video and I don't know if the FAA would consider that the congested area of a town (one of those open ended things they can get you on). I personally wouldn't do maneuvers over neighborhoods at low level (would prefer a large field) but wouldn't really have much of an issue at a higher altitude.

Really, I don't think the FAA would be able to figure out who this was without more info and it would probably just be a waste of your time to pursue it honestly.

 

[zz0468]

A couple of points to consider...

* There is an aerobatic Cessna, a version of the 150 called the Aerobat.

* It could also be another high-wing aerobatic airplane called a Citabria

* Based on your camera angles, it definitely appears possible that he could have been over the lake, or other empty areas. Those types of places are frequently designated practice areas, even if surrounded by populated areas.

* You stated he was flying low in the title to your video, but he appears to be performing at a safe altitude.

* The pilots view of what he's directly over can be substantially different from the perception of someone, especially a non-pilot, on the ground.

 

[Ghstwolf62]

Some of what you are saying almost sounds like student pilot disorientation training as well as other student flight training.

For example full power climb then pulling throttle followed by recovery is a part of stall recovery teaching if I recall correctly. It's been quite a few years but if I remember correctly you enter a full power steep climb until plane reaches stall speed at which point it literally keels over so to speak. If you have been out of the hood you push the nose down and increase power eventually bringing it back level. If you have had this done while under the hood you orientate yourself and do the same.

I remember my instructor doing all sorts of things to disorient me under the hood while I was a student then I had to figure out what my orientation was and get myself out of whatever pickle he'd put me in.

These maneuvers might seem rather wild observed from the ground I guess.

A thought anyway

 

[clanusb]

Some of what you are saying almost sounds like student pilot disorientation training as well as other student flight training.

For example full power climb then pulling throttle followed by recovery is a part of stall recovery teaching if I recall correctly. It's been quite a few years but if I remember correctly you enter a full power steep climb until plane reaches stall speed at which point it literally keels over so to speak. If you have been out of the hood you push the nose down and increase power eventually bringing it back level. If you have had this done while under the hood you orientate yourself and do the same.

I remember my instructor doing all sorts of things to disorient me under the hood while I was a student then I had to figure out what my orientation was and get myself out of whatever pickle he'd put me in.

These maneuvers might seem rather wild observed from the ground I guess.

A thought anyway

i agree. seemed to be some sort of training/practicing.

 

[cdesigns]

Just today while I was writing this I heard a plane doing almost the same thing, it might be same pilot or not.

I have an R/C FPV airplane (R/C Airplane with wireless camera on it) I have a HD camera installed ont he plane with a wireless video transmitter, next time I see this pilot doing something similar I will put my FPV plane on the air and recorded better, and hopefully get a tail number.

Here is one of the videos I took with the camera facing straight up, while he was flying over my house after doing some of the aerobatics. It's not the first time that here in florida small planes crashes on top of houses. Click full screen to see it better, its a HD video.

YouTube - Zi6_0129.MOV

 

[n5ims]

There's also a place that does aerobatic training in Leesburg FL, just a few miles from the OP's location. They have both biplanes and monoplanes to train on. They also offer rides where they do some aerobatics for a few hundred dollars. This may have been what was going on as well. With the clouds, they may have moved a bit south to get better weather.

 

[RayAir]

If you live in a "congested area" the rule is 1000' above the highest obstacle within 2000' of the a/c.
When I go do stalls and upset recovery I go out to a "practice area" in the country. And when I do these maneuvers I am well above the minimum (usually 4500'). Altitude is your friend.

 

[rmiller818]

Some of what you are saying almost sounds like student pilot disorientation training as well as other student flight training.

For example full power climb then pulling throttle followed by recovery is a part of stall recovery teaching if I recall correctly. It's been quite a few years but if I remember correctly you enter a full power steep climb until plane reaches stall speed at which point it literally keels over so to speak. If you have been out of the hood you push the nose down and increase power eventually bringing it back level. If you have had this done while under the hood you orientate yourself and do the same.

I remember my instructor doing all sorts of things to disorient me under the hood while I was a student then I had to figure out what my orientation was and get myself out of whatever pickle he'd put me in.

These maneuvers might seem rather wild observed from the ground I guess.

A thought anyway

Ya know, that was what I was thinking prior to watching the video, but these were much quicker and more aggressive maneuvers. I have watched aircraft from the ground practicing stalls and other maneuvers and the video just didn't look like that, especially near the end when he does the roll.

 

[Kator]

I hope that it is aerobatic rated/approved. Some of the aerobatics depicted can damage uncaged IFR instrumentation. We once had a kid toppling attitude indicators on club aircraft without anyone's knowledge. It cost big bucks to fix and could have endangered the lives of other users/pax during night/IFR flights.

 

[FoeHammer]

Well it looks a little more powerful than a standard cessna to me
could be stall/spin recovery training * some basic aerobatics , but doesnt really look that low to me
It appears high enough to me to be able to recover from most maneuvers
If this is anywhere where near an airport im sure they would be aware of t , or approved it , maybe even authorized & aerobatic practice box there to separate from other traffic...
without a tail number its more difficult to find out ,...

 

[zz0468]

Just today while I was writing this I heard a plane doing almost the same thing, it might be same pilot or not.

You're about 20 miles from an airport with at least one company that advertises aerobatic training. With all those lakes there, I'm guessing it's a designated practice area.

I have an R/C FPV airplane (R/C Airplane with wireless camera on it) I have a HD camera installed ont he plane with a wireless video transmitter, next time I see this pilot doing something similar I will put my FPV plane on the air and recorded better, and hopefully get a tail number.

That just sounds like a really bad idea. :roll:

Here is one of the videos I took with the camera facing straight up, while he was flying over my house after doing some of the aerobatics.

But he's not doing aerobatics in the video. I'd suggest you call the local airport, and find out where the designated practice areas are. I'm guessing he's over all those lakes, and not really over houses at all, in which case, the best you can do is sit back and enjoy the free airshow.

It's not the first time that here in florida small planes crashes on top of houses. Click full screen to see it better, its a HD video.

What do you mean "It's not the first time..."? It's not ANY time, the airplane didn't crash into a house, did it.

 

[JamesPrine]

For the OP: you've had some excellent feedback here.

I'm a pilot, too, and didn't see anything in your video that would indicate anything illegal or even unsafe.

Frankly, your video is worthless as any sort of evidence...you did not let us know the make, model, and type of camera, and what sort of zoom setting the lens was set to. A zoom lens set to a wide setting can make objects appear much further away than they really are, for one thing.

No, no N number was visible, the altitude appeared to be satisfactory, and from the other information you provided, this flying was not over a congested area.

So, what's the problem? What did you want to have done? What type of action would you want the FAA to do in an instance like this?

I live close to several airports and we have a large amount of military flying, particularly lights-out, low-level helicopter night flying, and no one seems to be upset by it. Also, we have overflights by mosquito control aircraft which operate at *extremely* low altitudes, again, with few complaints.

Perhaps you just have to get used to the activity?

Why not take a ride out to the airport and take a ride yourself, or perhaps a basic aerobatic orientation flight, which might put your fears to rest? It's fun and an interesting and exciting way to spend an hour or two.

In any event, good luck!

 

[cdesigns]

The thing that worries me is that he did some of the stall maneuvers in top of my house and that's when I decided to get my camera, after that he passed normally in top of me and then started again to do aerobatics.

I used a Kodak Zi6 HD camera, on a 2X digital zoom.

The only thing that bothers me is that before I was able to take the video the pilot did some maneuvers in top of my house and I heard the engine screaming when he tried to pull up after the stalling.

if you see my map there is a lot of empty space on the south to practice this, and I have seen other planes passing by flying NORMALLY but this is the first time I see this. If you ask me if this is training they should do it in a more empty area "training means they know **** they are still learning" , and not putting peoples lives at risk. Accidents happens and the day this happened it was windy and cloudy.

 

[Uplink]

I fly a 172 and I don't see anything illegal here. This is likely not a Cessna, and not maneuvers for student pilot training. Looks like he is flying level over your house in the other video. I checked the charts and he is not in any area he shouldn't be. You are confusing training with maintaining proficiency. As a pilot you have to fly to maintain proficiency and be current. He is just doing the same to maintain acrobatics proficiency, or if he is new to acrobtics, he is with an instructor that is current. Probably just a Citabria doing acrobatics over the lake, nothing more and not uncommon. Remember small planes fly safely every day, everywhere. It's media sensationalism that makes folks believe that they just fall out of the sky. I agree with the others, try taking a ride and it will ease your fears.

 

[zz0468]

The thing that worries me is that he did some of the stall maneuvers in top of my house and that's when I decided to get my camera, after that he passed normally in top of me and then started again to do aerobatics.

Unfortunately, you did not capture any evidence of that, so those of us who are actually pilots have to be skeptical. What you depicted in your videos appears to be perfectly safe, and perfectly legal, and based on the map you posted, and a little research on my own part, is quite likely to be over water or empty land.

I used a Kodak Zi6 HD camera, on a 2X digital zoom.

2X digital zoom? That would indicate that the plane is even further than it appears in the video.

The only thing that bothers me is that before I was able to take the video the pilot did some maneuvers in top of my house and I heard the engine screaming when he tried to pull up after the stalling.

WHAT maneuvers? There are a lot of perfectly legal maneuvers that a non-pilot might THINK are dangerous or illegal, but are perfectly safe, and perfectly legal to do over a populated area, assuming legal altitudes are maintained. Aerobatics are NOT legal over houses, "maneuvers" are.

if you see my map there is a lot of empty space on the south to practice this, and I have seen other planes passing by flying NORMALLY but this is the first time I see this.

There's a first time for everything. But if that's a designated practice area, there may be real and valid reasons why they don't practice in areas that YOU think they should. You don't have the whole story.

If you ask me if this is training they should do it in a more empty area "training means they know **** they are still learning" , and not putting peoples lives at risk. Accidents happens and the day this happened it was windy and cloudy.

Even 20,000 hour airline pilots practice, so that's a wild stretch to assume he doesn't know what he's doing. As to windy and cloudy, it's up to the pilot to determine if weather conditions are safe for flight, not some non-pilot on the ground. Your videos indicate a ceiling high enough for him to conduct his aerobatics and maintain safe and legal distance from clouds.

I'm sorry... you specifically asked for the opinions of pilots. If you're looking for support, maybe you're barking up the wrong tree. So far, the pilots who have weighed in all seem to agree that you're not showing anything alarming here.

 

[poltergeisty]

*sigh* Turn the scanner on, listen to unicom, and maybe you can figure out what's going on and perhaps catch the callsign.

I can't see the video because YouTube must be undergoing maintenance, but often times odd maneuvers are emergency practices. YMMV

 

[rmiller818]

The thing that worries me is that he did some of the stall maneuvers in top of my house and that's when I decided to get my camera, after that he passed normally in top of me and then started again to do aerobatics.

The only thing that bothers me is that before I was able to take the video the pilot did some maneuvers in top of my house and I heard the engine screaming when he tried to pull up after the stalling.

if you see my map there is a lot of empty space on the south to practice this, and I have seen other planes passing by flying NORMALLY but this is the first time I see this. If you ask me if this is training they should do it in a more empty area "training means they know **** they are still learning" , and not putting peoples lives at risk. Accidents happens and the day this happened it was windy and cloudy.

Stalls are really no big deal, they are taught to students after their first few hours of flight. When done properly, you really don't loose much altitude at all. As you pointed out there are plenty of open areas around your neighborhood which is probably why they are doing this in that area. Plus, it is not like they are staying only right above your neighborhood, they are probably just passing over it occasionally as they perform the maneuver. Even then,simply because they are over your house at a particular moment doesn't mean that that is where they would impact if they had an accident. You have to remember airplanes, for the most part, don't fall straght down, they glide and depending on the conditions can glide a pretty significant distance. And trust me, we would happily glide the few hundred feet north of your location to that big empty area.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry anymore about this guy crashing into your house anymore than the "other" aircraft who fly by "normally." And I really don't see this as putting people's lives at risk.