AOR AR-DV1

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FrankNY

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Eric, I would like to thank you and the others who have been working with and examining various aspects of this new radio. I don't have one at the present time, but expect to be receiving one as a gift in October. Perhaps due to all of your collective effort, and feedback to AOR, I'll wind up receiving a near-perfect product, and I really wish to express my appreciation to all of you for that.

In the meantime, I wonder if I could make a small request: would it be possible for someone who currently has the radio to post a copy of a short 10 second to 30 second .wav file, as recorded to the radio's SD card, for me to download and examine. It doesn't matter whether the original transmission was analog or in one of the radio's digital modes. I'd simply like to take a look at the file. All that I ask is that the file that you post for me to download is an exact copy of a genuine original file as recorded by the radio, and not something, for example, that has been passed through and subsequently saved by some audio editor program.

Thanks in advance.

Frank.
 

KC1UA

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Eric,

Thanks for your technical reporting. We seem to have some pretty good levels of coverage and hopefully AOR is taking our feedback as constructive criticism and putting it to use. There was no "Firmware Friday" this past week obviously, but maybe that's encouraging in that they're working on some significant changes.

Regarding the key colors, mine are showing a lovely shade of blue, and cycled through numerous different choices. With some of the colors you can hardly tell the keys are lit; blue is one of the examples of that.

I would like to see them do away with the clock on the display; it's relatively useless, and as I ranted in my thread, if the receiver can display DSTAR information on the bottom two lines of the display, why not make it really useful by at least displaying P25 NAC, DMR, and NXDN data.

I'm looking forward to reading more of your technical findings. Thanks.

To FrankNY; I can try to provide audio; I haven't got that far in testing yet and I'm not home until this evening, but if someone hasn't beaten me to it I'll give it a whirl.
 

FrankNY

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To FrankNY; I can try to provide audio; I haven't got that far in testing yet and I'm not home until this evening, but if someone hasn't beaten me to it I'll give it a whirl.

Thank you, Scott.

By the way, the only reason why I'm asking for a really short recording is simply to reduce the time and effort required on the uploader's part in getting the file to me. In point of fact, I have no problem downloading multi-gigabyte files. Also, if zipped and posted on this forum as an attachment to a post, I'm sure that there's some maximum permissible file size limit, so that too would be a consideration.

Thanks again.

Frank.
 

FrankNY

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Scott, I want to thank you very much for the two files that you uploaded.

In case anyone was wondering (if not, stop reading now!), the reason why I had requested a file was that I have years of experience working with digital audio (in many different file formats and data types including linear PCM, non-linear PCM, and both lossless codecs and lossy codecs) and had read that the files created by the AR-DV1 used a 19.2 kHz (19200 Hz) sampling rate.

What struck me was that I couldn't recall ever having dealt with an audio file of any type/format (or the audio track of a video file) where a 19.2 kHz sampling rate was used, so I just wanted to confirm for my own curiosity whether the reported figure of 19.2 kHz was accurate.

Looking at the files Scott supplied, in multiple programs, I find that the sampling rate is indeed 19.2 kHz. Here, for example, is what MediaInfo Lite reports for each of the two files.

Code:
Format                         : PCM
Format settings, Endianness    : Little
Format settings, Sign          : Signed
Codec ID                       : 1
Duration                       : 13s 653ms
Bit rate mode                  : Constant
Bit rate                       : 307 Kbps
Channel(s)                     : 1 channel
Sampling rate                  : 19.2 KHz
Bit depth                      : 16 bits

Usually when someone wants to produce some relatively low-grade audio, they'll use a sampling rate of 8, 16, or 32 kHz if in old-school mode. In the more modern world, they'll typically use 11.025 or 22.050 kHz sampling.

For audio CDs and many other mostly consumer applications, 44.1 kHz will be used.

For video, 48 kHz will usually be used.

For serious recording, such as in recording studios and even many home recording setups, when it's desired to use a multiple of the audio CD rate of 44.1 kHz, either 88.2 or 176.4 kHz will be used. If the audio CD rate of 44.1 kHz is of no concern, then 96, 192, or even (for the true extremists in the crowd) 384 kHz will be used.

For recording the voice communications audio output of a product such as the AOR AR-DV1, a sampling rate of 8 kHz or 11.025 kHz is sufficient as it meets the requirements of Nyquist–Shannon.

I would love to know where they came up with 19.2 kHz. In my imagination, I picture one of the AOR engineers as being an audiophile in his private life - or else moonlighting in a recording studio after his day job - and dealing with quality ADCs and DACs (analog-to-digital converters and digital-to-analog converters, respectively) and he's sitting there one day (evening) looking up at the front panel of one of these devices and seeing '19.2 kHz' marked on the front panel and saying to himself, "we can get by with one-tenth of that for the AR-DV1 since we're only recording voice traffic".

Just to ensure that I wasn't loosing it in my old age, I even checked Wikipedia to see what it had to say and, as expected, 19,200 Hz is not to be found on their list of "common audio sample rates".

Sampling (signal processing) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(signal_processing)

Since computer sound cards don't natively support a 19.2 kHz sampling rate, the operating system, at least in the case of Windows, must perform a sample rate conversion (to a rate supported by the installed sound card/sound device) prior to sending the audio data stream to the card for D-to-A conversion.

Along with the digital audio sampling rate used in recorded files, I was also curious about the statement on page 32 - Section 5-4 - of the AR-DV1 manual where it says, "The recorded files contain the recorded time, receiving frequency, receive mode, signal strength and receive mode."

Being the curious type, I wanted to know exactly how this information was stored in the .wav files produced by the AR-DV1. I figured that AOR might be using the EBU BWF (European Broadcasting Union - Broadcast Wave Format) that adds additional chunks to the standard Microsoft RIFF (Resource Interchange File Format) WAVE file format, or maybe they were using some of the old standard RIFF WAVE chunks to store this information.

Well, as it turns out, I examined the two files posted by Scott and although it appears that there are some extra chucks in the files, they don't conform to the EBU BWF specification and actually appear to be to non-standard. In fact, one of the programs that I used claimed that the files contained an "invalid chuck", and refused to open either of them.

The end result was that I was not able to decode any of the information that AOR says is included in the files. I even looked at each of the files in a hex editor program, but wasn't able to identify any human-readable information aside from the usual RIFF WAVE header stuff, so if the information is there, apparently a specially-written application program will be required in order to extract and display it.

And again, thank you Scott for posting the files. It is much appreciated.

Regards,

Frank.
 

EricCottrell

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Hello,

19200 is a common serial baud rate. The discriminator output sample rate over USB on late model Unidens is 38400, another common serial baud rate. It makes it easier to decode P25 and other digital modes that use 2400 and 4800 symbol rates as the clock is an easy integer division.

I tried out the aux output. It worked great on P25, and the other digital modes. It did not work with a 9600 baud EDACS control channel. It appears there is a low pass filter as the portions with alternating bits were at reduced amplitude.

73 Eric
 

FrankNY

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Eric, I think that you nailed it. The 19.2 kHz sampling rate used in the .wav files is related to the data rates used by the various digital voice modes that the radio decodes.

But it sure is a strange, and essentially non-standard, rate to be using in a digital audio file.

Regards,

Frank.
 

slicerwizard

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In case anyone was wondering (if not, stop reading now!), the reason why I had requested a file was that I have years of experience working with digital audio (in many different file formats and data types including linear PCM, non-linear PCM, and both lossless codecs and lossy codecs) and had read that the files created by the AR-DV1 used a 19.2 kHz (19200 Hz) sampling rate.

Along with the digital audio sampling rate used in recorded files, I was also curious about the statement on page 32 - Section 5-4 - of the AR-DV1 manual where it says, "The recorded files contain the recorded time, receiving frequency, receive mode, signal strength and receive mode."

Being the curious type, I wanted to know exactly how this information was stored in the .wav files produced by the AR-DV1. I figured that AOR might be using the EBU BWF (European Broadcasting Union - Broadcast Wave Format) that adds additional chunks to the standard Microsoft RIFF (Resource Interchange File Format) WAVE file format, or maybe they were using some of the old standard RIFF WAVE chunks to store this information.

Well, as it turns out, I examined the two files posted by Scott and although it appears that there are some extra chucks in the files, they don't conform to the EBU BWF specification and actually appear to be to non-standard. In fact, one of the programs that I used claimed that the files contained an "invalid chuck", and refused to open either of them.

The end result was that I was not able to decode any of the information that AOR says is included in the files. I even looked at each of the files in a hex editor program, but wasn't able to identify any human-readable information aside from the usual RIFF WAVE header stuff, so if the information is there, apparently a specially-written application program will be required in order to extract and display it.
A simple inspection of a file (I chose the smaller one) reveals everything.

Code:
52 49 46 46  "RIFF"
A4 00 08 00  chunk size (524,452)
57 41 56 45  "WAVE"

66 6D 74 20  "fmt "
10 00 00 00  chunk size (16)
01 00        format (PCM)
01 00        channels (1)
00 4B 00 00  sample rate (19200)
00 96 00 00  bytes/sec (38400)
02 00        block alignment
10 00        bits/sample (16)

64 61 74 61  "DATA"
00 00 08 00  data size (524,288)
5B 00 5B 00  16 bit audio data (524,288 bytes)
...

00 00 00 00  128 null bytes
...
EOF
A standard RIFF/WAVE header with a valid chunk size, followed by a format chunk with valid fields, then a valid audio data chunk, all followed by a block of 128 null bytes. No mysteries and no metadata.

The null block is probably where the metadata will go when AOR gets their act in gear. But before they do that, they may want to deal with the fact that the audio data block contains a 40+ byte near-replica of the above header chunks. Their buffer processing is fubared somewhere. Also, when recording digital audio, they're "recording" long sections of null (0x0000) audio samples that don't seem to be doing much good. BTW, to my ears, that digital audio doesn't sound very good, but I see it's from a degraded signal, so perhaps not a good representative sample.


But it sure is a strange, and essentially non-standard, rate to be using in a digital audio file.
As already noted, the audio sampling rate is no doubt related to internal processes. And by today's standards, the 8 kHz audio output produced by DSD/DSD+ is also non-standard, but nobody cares, certainly not Windows, so really, it's a non-issue as far as digital audio files go, but since DVSI's IMBE/AMBE codecs synthesize/output 8 kHz sampled audio, it makes no sense to my mind to generate 19.2 kHz recordings. It wastes space and requires and upsampling step for no gain.
 

KC1UA

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For the sake of doing so I'll put up some better digital audio asap. Just about all of my DMR and NXDN activity around here is business related; during the day it's cranking but by the time I get home and downstairs it's hit or miss. The audio, to my ears anyway, is overall pretty good.

Of far more importance right now though is you guys' ability to provide information on the audio to the level that you did. That's great work, and hopefully will be picked up and gone over by AOR. Thanks for taking the time to do this, and I'll be glad to provide any audio that I can for as long as I'm demoing the receiver.
 

AA6IO

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The digital audio quality in my opinion has always been pretty good. However, the P25 on my higher end scanners still sounds better to me. DMR on the AR-DV1 sounds pretty good, but I still give the edge to DMR quality on my CS-750. NXDN sounds good. I have no other NXDN radios so can't compare. Does sound better than DSD+, maybe.
I have not posted much in the past week on the AR-DV1 because frankly, the slow search/scan is really a limiting factor for me. Whether any significant improvement in this will be forthcoming in firmware updates, I don't know, but I'm not holding my breath. Have not done any audio recording with the radio.
I'm glad we have Eric, SliceWizard, Frank, and Scott evaluating things. They can provide much more in-depth information and hard data than I can.
When I see a comment like "A standard RIFF/WAVE header with a valid chunk size, followed by a format chunk with valid fields, then a valid audio data chunk, all followed by a block of 128 null bytes. No mysteries and no metadata," you have lost me. Thank you all for your feedback.
Just wish we could kick the scan/search speed up into higher gear.
 

FrankNY

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Thanks for posting that slicerwizard. It's much more detail than I had wanted to present here, but may well be of interest to some followers of this thread.

For anyone who hasn't downloaded and listened to these two files that Scott so kindly uploaded, the "smaller one" to which slicerwizard refers (00000001.wav) is a snippet of a standard analog audio NOAA weather broadcast. It sounds just fine to my ears, pretty much the same as I hear from my local NOAA station here in New York, keeping in mind that they no longer use live human announcers. :).

I would be inclined to rate the other file (00000003.wav) as low to very low in intelligibility.

With regard to the storing of metadata in the recorded .wav files, especially the "receiving frequency, receive mode, signal strength and receive mode" information that the AR-DV1 Operating Manual says is provided, I just took a quick look at AOR's published 'TO DO LIST' for the AR-DV1 and I see no mention of adding this information in a future firmware update. Makes me wonder if they've forgotten all about it ("sorry, it must have slipped through the cracks"), or maybe even abandoned the idea of including it.

And speaking of "long sections of null (0x0000) audio samples that don't seem to be doing much good", according to my count, the first file (00000001.wav) ends with 7,852 bytes of binary zeros and the second file (00000003.wav) ends with 58,323 bytes of binary zeros.

As to the replicated header information, I sort of moaned when I initially saw that - and then later forgot to mention it in my post. They absolutely should fix that.

Frank.
 

EricCottrell

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Hello,

I got the impression that the gaps are a recording delay after the squelch closes.

The manual hints at the metadata being displayed during playback. The display format looks similar to receiving live, like the later Uniden scanners.

73 Eric
 

slicerwizard

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And speaking of "long sections of null (0x0000) audio samples that don't seem to be doing much good", according to my count, the first file (00000001.wav) ends with 7,852 bytes of binary zeros and the second file (00000003.wav) ends with 58,323 bytes of binary zeros.
00000003.wav has three runs of null audio samples. They add up to over 320,000 bytes.
 

EricCottrell

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Hello,

Some more observations.

I miss having a 2.5 or 7.5 KHz step size for VHF searching. There are frequencies allocations on 7.5 KHz centers in the area. One of the neat features of my other AOR receivers is the user-defined step size. I miss the feature on the AR-DV1.

HF usage was delayed due to antenna problems. I am using a SA7000 instead of my Wellbrook loop. I live in a urban moderately high RF environment. I have three problematic signals on AM at 950, 1230, and 1360 KHz. They easily read from S9+30db to S9+50db depending on the receiver.

The AR-DV1 uses Direct Conversion up to 18 MHz. The receiver appears to lack the front end filtering to divide up the range. This causes problems with signal overload below 18 MHz from strong AM Broadcast stations. I tuned across several shortwave broadcast bands and can hear a local AM station in the background. I noticed interference from a local AM Station spread from 15.00 to 15.120 with a peak at 15.065 MHz.

The AR-Alpha also uses Direct Conversion up to 18 MHz. I see a similar problem with signal overload on the AM Broadcast band with the preamplifier on. This goes away when I tune the AR-Alpha above 1700 KHz or turn off the preamplifier. The Alpha tunes the 19 Meter band fine.

I put a MW band-reject filter in line with the antenna and it improved the AM Broadcast Band on both receivers. The filter eliminated the background local AM station on the AR-DV1. The receiver could now receive weaker stations. The interference at 15.065 MHz was still there and prevented reception of a weak WWV that I could receive on the AR-Alpha.

The background noise also increases when I step the AR-DV1 from below 18 MHz to above 18 MHz, even with the MW Band Reject filter inline. So strong signals are reducing the receiver gain below 18 MHz. I had no problem listen to weak signals on the 18 MHz Ham band with both receivers.

The AR-DV1 would benefit with user-controllable attenuation.

The comparison with a receiver that costs 10x the AR-DV1 is not a totally fair test, but I wanted to compare two direct conversion receivers. The AR-DV1 is similar to the AR8600, so how does it compare?

The AR8600 has a higher maximum frequency, but I do not listen to anything above 1300 MHz anyway. The tuning knob on the AR8600 is smaller without a spinner depression. The displayed frequency resolution is 100 Hz on the AR8600, compared to 10 Hz on the AR-DV1. The smallest frequency step on the AR8600 is 50 Hz, which means the frequency display changes every other step. I like the AR-DV1 display and tuning knob better. The AR-DV1 keypad seems easier to use.

The AR8600 does not suffer as much from AM Broadcast station overload. No problem tuning the Shortwave Bands. The audio on AM sounds about the same on both receivers using internal speakers. The AR8600 does not have all the filters and the Digital Modes of the AR-DV1.

Tuning in local NWS Weather, the AR-DV1 could receive one of the distant NWS stations almost full quieting, while it was very noisy on the AR8600.

73 Eric
 

DSC45

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Eric,

Thank you for your observations of the AR-DV1 this morning, it's greatly appreciated by this RR member. Looking forward to see more of your observations and reports!
 
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grosminet

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DV1 in Europe

DV1 arrive in Europe at 1600 € .

I ll wait an DV2 with IQ output -> tetra decoder or 10,7 Mhz --> spectral Analysis
 

DSC45

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What changed my mind is getting the concept of the AR-DV1 as a scanner out of my mind, and realizing what it is, a wideband receiver. And as a wideband receiver, it is really quite good.

I agree completely!

There are to many that are comparing this AR-DV1 Receiver to a scanner radio. The AR-DV1 is not a scanning radio!

In my opinion, the AR-DV1 is doing a good job receiving every search I've programmed so far, and that includes P25 digital. I'm more than pleased!
 

KC1UA

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I am fully aware of the difference between a scanner and a receiver. :)

This receiver can show data from a DStar repeater on the bottom two lines of the display. However, when it comes to P25, DMR and/or NXDN systems, it does not use those two lines to display any data, which could include talkgroup numbers, radio ID's, P25 NAC, DMR slots, etc. While this receiver will likely never trunk-track any of these systems, the lack of showing data on systems such as the above, while merrily displaying data from an amateur radio protocol, is to me at least a total absurdity. Other than decoding the digital audio, the receiver is completely useless with regards to helping to identify the use of the digital system being received...IMHO.

As I stated in the thread I started, the final test for me will be the next firmware release. At this time I have no intention of keeping this receiver barring something akin to the above.

I agree completely!

There are to many that are comparing this AR-DV1 Receiver to a scanner radio. The AR-DV1 is not a scanning radio!

In my opinion, the AR-DV1 is doing a good job receiving every search I've programmed so far, and that includes P25 digital. I'm more than pleased!
 

DSC45

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I am fully aware of the difference between a scanner and a receiver. :)

This receiver can show data from a DStar repeater on the bottom two lines of the display. However, when it comes to P25, DMR and/or NXDN systems, it does not use those two lines to display any data, which could include talkgroup numbers, radio ID's, P25 NAC, DMR slots, etc. While this receiver will likely never trunk-track any of these systems, the lack of showing data on systems such as the above, while merrily displaying data from an amateur radio protocol, is to me at least a total absurdity. Other than decoding the digital audio, the receiver is completely useless with regards to helping to identify the use of the digital system being received...IMHO.

As I stated in the thread I started, the final test for me will be the next firmware release. At this time I have no intention of keeping this receiver barring something akin to the above.

Hi Scott,

I hope my comments haven't offended you. They were not directed to you, but directed toward those who hijack the threads. I'm just expressing my enthusiasm out loud for the AR-DV1.

I really appreciate all your help and guidance that you, Steve and Eric have provided me.
 
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