APCO 25 800MHz help

Status
Not open for further replies.

xusmarine1979

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,465
Location
Louisville, Ohio
Hello all and Happy Mother's Day to all of the Mom's out there.

I know this has been discussed a million times. When I walk through parts of the buildings here at work I listen to our S.O. and Canton. They are both APCO 25 and TRS. Through some parts they brake up quite badly. If you experts could help me out, do I need an amp or just a better antenna? When I'm out on the road everything comes in great. It's just in some buildings. I listen to pretty much every band. But inside the buildings seem to have the most effect on 800.

I'm currently using the Pro-96 and RS' 800MHz rubber antenna. Thanks for any responses.
 

n8chb

Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Messages
145
xusmarine1979 said:
Hello all and Happy Mother's Day to all of the Mom's out there.

I know this has been discussed a million times. When I walk through parts of the buildings here at work I listen to our S.O. and Canton. They are both APCO 25 and TRS. Through some parts they brake up quite badly. If you experts could help me out, do I need an amp or just a better antenna? When I'm out on the road everything comes in great. It's just in some buildings. I listen to pretty much every band. But inside the buildings seem to have the most effect on 800.

I'm currently using the Pro-96 and RS' 800MHz rubber antenna. Thanks for any responses.

hi,

The problem is not your radio scanner. You are experiencing the same thing the folks your listening to also. 800MHz digital systems operate on a frequency that dissipates and weakens passing though solid objects.

Inside your building is like an RF jail and there's little that can be done walking around with a hand held.

Only one thing I know of that does work sort of is to use a 1/4 wave 3 and 1/4 inch antenna but it will still
not work that well.

Roger - n8chb
 

xusmarine1979

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,465
Location
Louisville, Ohio
Thank you for the response. I have been reading about the "Seeker". Anybody have experience with this antenna and how does it compare to The RS antenna on VHF, UHF, and 800MHz?
 

xusmarine1979

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,465
Location
Louisville, Ohio
I have another question... I hope it doesn't sound stupid though. Is it possible that if you have an antenna for a long period of time that it will lose some of it's performance as it wears down? I'm asking because the antenna that I have on right now has been on for about 8 years. So would I see any improvement by buying a new one of the same thing?
 

KCChiefs9690

Delaware County
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
1,830
Location
Lewis Center, OH
xusmarine1979 said:
I have another question... I hope it doesn't sound stupid though. Is it possible that if you have an antenna for a long period of time that it will lose some of it's performance as it wears down? I'm asking because the antenna that I have on right now has been on for about 8 years. So would I see any improvement by buying a new one of the same thing?

I would imagine that if you don't maintain it (replace old coax, clean connectors, etc) that the signal will wear out, and the antenna could rust, especially after 8 years. :)
 

W4KRR

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 1, 2001
Messages
3,397
Location
Coconut Creek, FL
xusmarine1979 said:
I have another question... I hope it doesn't sound stupid though. Is it possible that if you have an antenna for a long period of time that it will lose some of it's performance as it wears down? I'm asking because the antenna that I have on right now has been on for about 8 years. So would I see any improvement by buying a new one of the same thing?

Yes, coax cable will definitely deteriorate after a long period of time exposed to the elements. The effect will be noticed more at higher frequencies. And as noted above, the antenna can also rust, corrode, or deteriorate. I would start by replacing the coax cable with the best low loss cable you can afford, and inspect and clean the antenna, especially the coax connector.
 

RevGary

Pastor and Chaplain Responder
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
806
xusmarine1979 said:
I have another question... I hope it doesn't sound stupid though. Is it possible that if you have an antenna for a long period of time that it will lose some of it's performance as it wears down? I'm asking because the antenna that I have on right now has been on for about 8 years. So would I see any improvement by buying a new one of the same thing?


Just in case you are refering to an antenna mounted directly to your scanner (rubber duckie), they can also degrade with time - especially if it is constantly bent at an angle and stresses are placed on the load windings inside and the connector area.

Your loss of signal in buildings, etc., is the curse of highband UHF and '800' frequency operation. These same drop out's are experienced by Public Safety personnel with their high end portable equipment, so don't be too concerned about it using a scanner. Manufacturers have known about these characteristics for several decades, but still keep selling more and more equipment to unsuspecting agencies who have to continually throw good money after bad to make an attempt to 'fix' the problems. Signal dropouts and unsafe conditions are costing public safey personnel their lives and as one who has the responsibility to work with the families of personnel killed while on duty, I am seeing this more and more - with agencies who use 700, 800 and 900 Mhz comm systems. If the rank and file officers and firefighters nationwide RESEARCH what is happening to their colleagues with these signal issues in emergency situations, perhaps they will unite and refuse to accept the radio equipment that is causing the problems and allowing officers and firefighters to die because no one can hear their cries for assistance. We can only hope.
 

xusmarine1979

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,465
Location
Louisville, Ohio
Thank you for your replies Gentlemen. Sorry about that, I was refering to the antenna attached directly to the radio. I went and got a new one today with some improvement. Thanks again.
 

sac-emt

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
171
Sacramento's Plan of Action

This is how we are addressing the poor 800mhz signal strength in large buildings in the County of Sacramento. If the buildings are not equipped with the following systems noted on the link below, we move over to a VHF frequency to mitigate the communication problem.

Sacramento City Fire uses the VHF frequency quite often since there many highrises in the downtown area as well as the Convention Center.

Here is a link to the Sacramento Metropolitan Fire District Fire Prevention Bureau's Standards to address this issue:

http://www.smfd.ca.gov/pdf/FPS444.401 800 Mhz Radio Systems.pdf
 

RevGary

Pastor and Chaplain Responder
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
806
SAC-EMT : Thank you - That is our point exactly - no Public Safety personel should have to be saddled with more than one piece of radio comm equipment to complete their everyday duties. Making a decision on which radio to use, or not use, under emergency conditions wastes precious time, puts undue stress on the personnel and in some cases, allows a bad situation to get totally out of control when communications can not be established. We know from scientific testing that the 800 portables are also affected severely by the plasma distortions that a working fire can create in absorbing or blocking 800 signals. This puts firefighters in danger when they can not hear a 'pull back' order from the Engine Company Commander.

These 800 systems do not have the coverage that a good VHF or UHF system has, but the manufacturers keep selling this trash because the 800 systems cost 3 to 5 times as much as the lower frequency systems and their profits soar - all at the expense of lives in jeopardy. That is unacceptable. PLANS such as the one that you provided are nothing more than the same type of "PATCH" that Microsoft has been issuing to WINDOWS users for 20 years. Sell a platform and then keep 'fixing it'...

More and more agencies are dumping 700, 800 and 900 in favor of systems that WORK. Read through some of the nightmare scenarios that have been discussed in the Michigan and Florida Forums concerning the garbage 800 statewide systems and the problems there...
 

xusmarine1979

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
1,465
Location
Louisville, Ohio
Wow, thanks for the great responses guys. I do see the better audio and all with the digital and even at times with the analog 800, but to be honest I think I'd prefer VHF or UHF.
 

kb2vxa

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
6,100
Location
Point Pleasant Beach, N.J.
Hi all,

"Is it possible that if you have an antenna for a long period of time that it will lose some of it's performance as it wears down?"

Yes, every antenna has a little battery like a watch or calculator. They last about 5 years and after that they run down so the signals aren't as strong, just replace the battery.

"Inside your building is like an RF jail and there's little that can be done walking around with a hand held."

If it doesn't cause interference the RF can be paroled on good behavior.

"I have been reading about the "Seeker". Anybody have experience with this antenna and how does it compare to The RS antenna on VHF, UHF, and 800MHz?"

It works considerably better than antennas that just sit there and don't go looking for signals.

"Yes, coax cable will definitely deteriorate after a long period of time exposed to the elements."

You don't need to expose it to the elements, the antenna already HAS elements. When you expose it to an antenna, they use thier elements to mate and produce more antennas and because they have short elements they work best on higher frequencies. When they grow up they work on lower frequencies so keep breeding them for good frequency coverage.

"The effect will be noticed more at higher frequencies."

That's what I said about baby antennas.

"And as noted above, the antenna can also rust, corrode, or deteriorate."

Like a road with heavy traffic it develops pot holes and the signals break up when they hit them at high speed. It's horrible at the speed of light! "Oh, the electrons! I'm sorry, I can't bear to watch anymore, I can hardly talk..."

"Thank you for your replies Gentlemen."

Don't thank ME, it get worse, MUCH worse.

"Sorry about that, I was refering to the antenna attached directly to the radio."

Uh oh, now you're asking for it. Electrons from the power supply back up through the radio and get into the antenna. Keep your eye on it and look for signs of swelling. If swolen it's pregnant so take it off and take very special care of it. Soon it will give birth and you'll be the proud father of a gaggle of little rubber duckies. You may consider coating the connector with silicone rubber before putting it back on the scanner.

"Here is a link to the Sacramento Metropolitan Fire District Fire Prevention Bureau's Standards to address this issue:"

Oh never mind the jokes about the fireman's hose, we're talking coax here!

"I do see the better audio and all with the digital and even at times with the analog 800, but to be honest I think I'd prefer VHF or UHF."

Now you're getting the idea, the higher the frequency the better the chances the system will get pregnant. Remember, hams do it with high frequency and big antennas but we make sure our connectors are well insulated.
 
Last edited:

RevGary

Pastor and Chaplain Responder
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
806
Hey, Warren - those power supply electrons backing up can be neutralized with an AJAX Current Confuser - the same kind that Wiley Coyote uses when trying to capture the Road Runner... BEEP BEEP!!


Ajax Current Confuser is a mile of 64 gauge insullated solid inductor wire wound around a wooden pencil core and attached to two points: ground and the 102,600 volt center tap at the Hoover Dam power grid... BEEP BEEP!!
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
RevGary said:
. .
More and more agencies are dumping 700, 800 and 900 in favor of systems that WORK. .. ....


Do you have some examples of "More and More"? (sounds like you believe this is an accelerating trend)
 

RevGary

Pastor and Chaplain Responder
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
806
I'll leave the actual FCC data search to you - there is no concise single location to document the vacating of 800 in favor of returning to VHF or UHF. Do areawide license searches in the FCC database (NOT the one here in tthe forun) and LOOK at the dates for the new VHF and UHF Public Safety licenses...they will be newer than the dates on the 800 system licenses for those agencies. Communications equipment manufactureres don't want you to know about this and may possibly be responsible for surpression of such data.

These also make good reading:

http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/project_39/documents/consensus-support-letter.doc

http://www.ocgrandjury.org/pdfs/gj800mhzradio.pdf

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=16436

http://www.fauquiernews.com/083101issue.htm

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?id=28909&sectionId=13

http://www.fauquiernews.com/081001issue.htm

http://www.geocities.com/45peter/trsbad.html

http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12520.html

http://telecommunityalliance.org/testimony/interferencetestimony03.html




That should keep you busy for awhile - need more? I have access to hundreds of such cases, reports and information... just as you do. GOOGLE it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top